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It doesn't always have to be like this though. Look at Factorio – the devs are happy (looking from the outside, but they are always very enthusiastic about how

It doesn't always have to be like this though. Look at Factorio – the devs are happy (looking from the outside, but they are always very enthusiastic about how they love the game), the community loves it (there are infinite remarks of people who sunk thousands of hours into this game, all for a single payment of 25 €), and they don't seem to have any financial issues either. I have not seen many disappointed people around Factorio (maybe that dev of the IR mod [1]). [1]: https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?t=83197 https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?t=83197

MaximumYComb 6y ago
If they released a $50 DLC that just adds a bunch of super difficult achievements I'd pick that up just to support them. I've sunk 4 figures of hours into that game and I regret not having any of my goals left to achieve. I've done speedrunning, mega factories, difficult map settings, etc.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  Just figured out that I can start a custom map and turn off the biters. Been playing into the wee mornings for a week now. Got into the logic system heavily. I'm optimising production in my sleep now. Send help. Can't stop.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    You joke, but I think that this is why "addicting" is never a quality you want in a game, even one like Factorio where it is a product of good-intention game design and isn't just rent-seeking. Addiction is destructive.
  - bloopernova 6y ago
    Off topic: what do you use logic for? I am at a loss on how to use it effectively.
    - MaximumYComb 6y ago
      The first effective use you stumble across is oil refining chains. Only turn on heavy cracking if heavy oil is backing up, etc.
      - theshrike79 6y ago
        Found my project for tonight, "thanks" I guess? :D
    - theshrike79 6y ago
      I run a logistic robot based system with individual buildings receiving and sending items with chests. With logic I can connect the input or output inserter to the roboport and only feed items to the chests if the total number of items in the robot network is under a certain amount. The other big use is cycling power between solar and steam. Plug in the steam power's water pump to an accumulator and set it to turn off when the accumulator capacity is over, say, 50%. This way you won't feed excess power to the network and waste fuel.
      - MaximumYComb 6y ago
        At what stage do you find "wasting fuel" on power an issue? Early game one x red-belt of coal will supply fuel for electricity generation. One you go to solar + accumulators you very quickly don't need steam power anymore unless you're going robot heavy, in which case you'll just stamp a small nuclear plant.
        theshrike79 6y ago
        ...because I want to spend 5 hours optimising stuff like that? =) My base is a total clusterfuck and not a perfect city grid of maximised train-based transports to hyper-optimised factory blueprints. Just the way I like it.
- jiggawatts 6y ago
  I recommend the Industrial Revolution 2 mod. It's free and feels like a $50 DLC
me_me_me 6y ago
Same with Hades by Supergiant Games. Its an amazing game and the company is proudly kicking people out if they try to stay after hours. It is possible but you can also squeeze the life out of your replaceable staff and hold them guilt hostage (if you don't work as hard as everyone else then you are making them work harder). If the project has crunch time for the most development time then its not a crunch its the norm.
- meibo 6y ago
  Disclaimer: Supergiant also sold out to Epic Games, one of the game industry harbingers of doom and workplace abuse(together with Activision-Blizzard). Might not want to give those any money.
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    I waited and got it on steam. You can't blame them for taking time exclusive money, they are a business afterall. And its not like they support their practices.
    - bathtub365 6y ago
      They absolutely support their practices by doing business with them. Not only did they list their game for sale on their store, they took their money (earned via those business practices) to give them the exclusive right to sell the game on their store for a period of time. This has the goal of driving even more customers to Epic. They don’t do these deals out of benevolence.
      - me_me_me 6y ago
        Have you bought a Nestle product? Is so you support child slavery. By your logic: > You absolutely support their practices by doing business with them. Life is not black and white.
        User23 6y ago
raverbashing 6y ago
The difference between AAA and indie games seems to be night and day in terms of working conditions I'll take "boring" (but not too boring) and pays the bills any day before "cool but will be unhealthy mentally/physically"
pjc50 6y ago
They're not hostage to their publisher, it seems.
tomash 6y ago
Factorio is awesome. It's kind of funny-ironic that a counter-example to "making games as addictive as possible" is an indie game addictive enough to be called "cracktorio" by its fans.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  It's a different kind of addiction. Factorio is the ultimate nerd-snipe[0] for a large class of people who enjoy flexing their brains. The addictiveness is a side effect the developers maximizing having fun (for the aforementioned subset of the population). When people talk about "making games as addictive as possible" in the general and pejorative sense, they usually mean something else: they mean that the optimization goal is not "fun", but "making money off players". That very often involves making games less fun on purpose, to exploit player's psychology against them. You keep frustrating them on purpose - but not hard enough for them to abandon the game entirely - in hopes that over time, enough of them will break and buy the paid content or unfrustration features, to relieve their psychological pain. Explicitly additive aspects get included to maximize the time the player is exposed to these monetization opportunities. Addictiveness is ultimately a red herring in these discussions. Factorio is designed as a win-win game, the devs wants to give their players the best experience in the game's category. Modern, pay-to-win, addictive games are designed by malicious people with no moral compass, who want to extract as much money as possible from people, as cheaply as possible. (Like with many of the big problems in our industry, focusing on tech or immediate "sciency-sounding" consequences is missing the forest for the trees. These problems all stem from people being allowed to exploit others for money. Solutions to mitigate immediate consequences will be worked around very quickly. Real solutions need to involve restrictions on the types of business that can be done.) -- [0] - https://xkcd.com/356/ https://xkcd.com/356/
  - Netcob 6y ago
    Yes, exactly. I just played a mobile game, and as usual it has a hundred different in-game currencies that you can buy with real money. Every time I finish a level there's an endless parade of meaningless "rewards", and I see some coins going into a piggybank. When it was full, I clicked it, and the game congratulated me for now being eligible to buy the contents. The game is a clone of puzzle bobble. Like you said, none of that is making puzzle bobble a "better game". It's saying "Wow, you won/earned something! It's almost yours now, you just have to pay this tiny fee to actually have it...". I don't feel like I'm on the same side as the developer, and this is worlds apart from how Factorio treats players. Since "addictive" still has positive connotations in gaming, I'll just call it "manipulative" from now on.
Netcob 6y ago
I love Factorio and I don't doubt that happy free-range game developers exist. But that's not what I would expect the typical game developer experience to be like.
garretraziel 6y ago
When it comes to Factorio, I've seen some backslash/hate from gamers for dev's decision on never putting Factorio on sale.
- Sebb767 6y ago
  Some people will always spite you. It's not open source either (hey, CDPR games might be, soon!). To be fair here, their reasoning is that Factorio is worth the 25€ and that they don't want people to feel cheated because they missed out on a lower price. I don't think that's bad in any way.
  - daemin 6y ago
    No I don't think so. Thank back to the HL2 source code leak months before release of the game. The game still isn't open source even after all this time. But yes I wholeheartedly agree with your Factorio point. I've bought 2 copies of the game so far because I enjoy it, and I don't feel cheated even though I paid full price.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Gamers are such entitled brats. If we go by what the average NES game cost in the 80s, Factorio should be at least $120, probably a lot more due to having significantly more content and replay value. And I didn't even like Factorio. I'm just sick gamer-brand bullshit.
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  Steam's reputation for sales has ruined me. It is now extremely rare for me to buy a game at full price. Even a $20 game, I'll wait for a sale, as if I'd even notice the $5 I saved. That said, once I had discovered that the Factorio devs said it would never go on sale, I decided to pick it up and was glad I did. I'm looking forward to picking up Cyberpunk whenever it goes on sale. By then, maybe it will be a much smoother and more enjoyable experience.
darkcha0s 6y ago
I hate to be that guy, but there is a massive difference between a game like Factorio and a game like Cyberpunk. Of course we all know that, but it has an impact on the quality, etc. The technical complexity of CP requires many different technologies to work together, and that draws a large amount of gamers-- Factorio is and will remain rather niche.
pharmakom 6y ago
There are very few Factorio stories in the game dev world.

MaximumYComb 6y ago

If they released a $50 DLC that just adds a bunch of super difficult achievements I'd pick that up just to support them. I've sunk 4 figures of hours into that game and I regret not having any of my goals left to achieve. I've done speedrunning, mega factories, difficult map settings, etc.

theshrike79 6y ago
Just figured out that I can start a custom map and turn off the biters. Been playing into the wee mornings for a week now. Got into the logic system heavily. I'm optimising production in my sleep now. Send help. Can't stop.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  You joke, but I think that this is why "addicting" is never a quality you want in a game, even one like Factorio where it is a product of good-intention game design and isn't just rent-seeking. Addiction is destructive.
- bloopernova 6y ago
  Off topic: what do you use logic for? I am at a loss on how to use it effectively.
  - MaximumYComb 6y ago
    The first effective use you stumble across is oil refining chains. Only turn on heavy cracking if heavy oil is backing up, etc.
    - theshrike79 6y ago
      Found my project for tonight, "thanks" I guess? :D
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    I run a logistic robot based system with individual buildings receiving and sending items with chests. With logic I can connect the input or output inserter to the roboport and only feed items to the chests if the total number of items in the robot network is under a certain amount. The other big use is cycling power between solar and steam. Plug in the steam power's water pump to an accumulator and set it to turn off when the accumulator capacity is over, say, 50%. This way you won't feed excess power to the network and waste fuel.
    - MaximumYComb 6y ago
      At what stage do you find "wasting fuel" on power an issue? Early game one x red-belt of coal will supply fuel for electricity generation. One you go to solar + accumulators you very quickly don't need steam power anymore unless you're going robot heavy, in which case you'll just stamp a small nuclear plant.
      - theshrike79 6y ago
        ...because I want to spend 5 hours optimising stuff like that? =) My base is a total clusterfuck and not a perfect city grid of maximised train-based transports to hyper-optimised factory blueprints. Just the way I like it.
jiggawatts 6y ago
I recommend the Industrial Revolution 2 mod. It's free and feels like a $50 DLC

me_me_me 6y ago

Same with Hades by Supergiant Games. Its an amazing game and the company is proudly kicking people out if they try to stay after hours. It is possible but you can also squeeze the life out of your replaceable staff and hold them guilt hostage (if you don't work as hard as everyone else then you are making them work harder). If the project has crunch time for the most development time then its not a crunch its the norm.

meibo 6y ago
Disclaimer: Supergiant also sold out to Epic Games, one of the game industry harbingers of doom and workplace abuse(together with Activision-Blizzard). Might not want to give those any money.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  I waited and got it on steam. You can't blame them for taking time exclusive money, they are a business afterall. And its not like they support their practices.
  - bathtub365 6y ago
    They absolutely support their practices by doing business with them. Not only did they list their game for sale on their store, they took their money (earned via those business practices) to give them the exclusive right to sell the game on their store for a period of time. This has the goal of driving even more customers to Epic. They don’t do these deals out of benevolence.
    - me_me_me 6y ago
      Have you bought a Nestle product? Is so you support child slavery. By your logic: > You absolutely support their practices by doing business with them. Life is not black and white.
      - User23 6y ago

raverbashing 6y ago

The difference between AAA and indie games seems to be night and day in terms of working conditions I'll take "boring" (but not too boring) and pays the bills any day before "cool but will be unhealthy mentally/physically"

pjc50 6y ago

They're not hostage to their publisher, it seems.

tomash 6y ago

Factorio is awesome. It's kind of funny-ironic that a counter-example to "making games as addictive as possible" is an indie game addictive enough to be called "cracktorio" by its fans.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
It's a different kind of addiction. Factorio is the ultimate nerd-snipe[0] for a large class of people who enjoy flexing their brains. The addictiveness is a side effect the developers maximizing having fun (for the aforementioned subset of the population). When people talk about "making games as addictive as possible" in the general and pejorative sense, they usually mean something else: they mean that the optimization goal is not "fun", but "making money off players". That very often involves making games less fun on purpose, to exploit player's psychology against them. You keep frustrating them on purpose - but not hard enough for them to abandon the game entirely - in hopes that over time, enough of them will break and buy the paid content or unfrustration features, to relieve their psychological pain. Explicitly additive aspects get included to maximize the time the player is exposed to these monetization opportunities. Addictiveness is ultimately a red herring in these discussions. Factorio is designed as a win-win game, the devs wants to give their players the best experience in the game's category. Modern, pay-to-win, addictive games are designed by malicious people with no moral compass, who want to extract as much money as possible from people, as cheaply as possible. (Like with many of the big problems in our industry, focusing on tech or immediate "sciency-sounding" consequences is missing the forest for the trees. These problems all stem from people being allowed to exploit others for money. Solutions to mitigate immediate consequences will be worked around very quickly. Real solutions need to involve restrictions on the types of business that can be done.) -- [0] - https://xkcd.com/356/ https://xkcd.com/356/
- Netcob 6y ago
  Yes, exactly. I just played a mobile game, and as usual it has a hundred different in-game currencies that you can buy with real money. Every time I finish a level there's an endless parade of meaningless "rewards", and I see some coins going into a piggybank. When it was full, I clicked it, and the game congratulated me for now being eligible to buy the contents. The game is a clone of puzzle bobble. Like you said, none of that is making puzzle bobble a "better game". It's saying "Wow, you won/earned something! It's almost yours now, you just have to pay this tiny fee to actually have it...". I don't feel like I'm on the same side as the developer, and this is worlds apart from how Factorio treats players. Since "addictive" still has positive connotations in gaming, I'll just call it "manipulative" from now on.

Netcob 6y ago

I love Factorio and I don't doubt that happy free-range game developers exist. But that's not what I would expect the typical game developer experience to be like.

garretraziel 6y ago

When it comes to Factorio, I've seen some backslash/hate from gamers for dev's decision on never putting Factorio on sale.

Sebb767 6y ago
Some people will always spite you. It's not open source either (hey, CDPR games might be, soon!). To be fair here, their reasoning is that Factorio is worth the 25€ and that they don't want people to feel cheated because they missed out on a lower price. I don't think that's bad in any way.
- daemin 6y ago
  No I don't think so. Thank back to the HL2 source code leak months before release of the game. The game still isn't open source even after all this time. But yes I wholeheartedly agree with your Factorio point. I've bought 2 copies of the game so far because I enjoy it, and I don't feel cheated even though I paid full price.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
Gamers are such entitled brats. If we go by what the average NES game cost in the 80s, Factorio should be at least $120, probably a lot more due to having significantly more content and replay value. And I didn't even like Factorio. I'm just sick gamer-brand bullshit.
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
Steam's reputation for sales has ruined me. It is now extremely rare for me to buy a game at full price. Even a $20 game, I'll wait for a sale, as if I'd even notice the $5 I saved. That said, once I had discovered that the Factorio devs said it would never go on sale, I decided to pick it up and was glad I did. I'm looking forward to picking up Cyberpunk whenever it goes on sale. By then, maybe it will be a much smoother and more enjoyable experience.

darkcha0s 6y ago

I hate to be that guy, but there is a massive difference between a game like Factorio and a game like Cyberpunk. Of course we all know that, but it has an impact on the quality, etc. The technical complexity of CP requires many different technologies to work together, and that draws a large amount of gamers-- Factorio is and will remain rather niche.

pharmakom 6y ago

There are very few Factorio stories in the game dev world.