12 ms·

I agree 100%. K&R is the standard all authors should strive for. The length of these books is also our fault. Bigger books sell better. I hope there is a backla

by peterb 15y ago

I agree 100%. K&R is the standard all authors should strive for. The length of these books is also our fault. Bigger books sell better. I hope there is a backlash brewing. K&R, Little Schemer, Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns, were all great small books.

fogus 15y ago
Bigger books sell better. Is this true? I was always under the impression that bigness was used to justify a higher price point.
- Calamitous 15y ago
  I suspect it's a perception issue... the price difference between a slim programming book and a fat one is minimal. Dropping $50-$60 on a tome feels like a better value if you have to wheel it out with a dolly, instead of slipping it in your pocket.
  - Apocryphon 15y ago
    I have to concur, unfortunately. If a tutorial book adds a huge reference section, I'd feel that it's a better deal for the same price- I may never look at the appendices, but I'll feel that I possibly could, just in case. Publishers ought to fix the pricing in general.
- bgruber 15y ago
  regardless of whether it's true, greenspun reported that it's what the publishers believe: "It is an article of faith in the computer publishing that bigger books sell better. They take up more space on the shelf and readers with a tech problem find a bigger book comforting. Readers aren't really sure what is wrong with their computer and they only have a few minutes in the bookstore so they figure the thickest book is the most likely to contain the solution." http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story
- ChuckMcM 15y ago
  Its absolutely true. The exact same effect occurs in restaurants and floral arrangements. There is a fixed cost, we'll call it X, to get the {book/meal/arrangement) made, the marginal cost of {paper/food/flowers) is small relative to the fixed cost and yet is the dominant factor in perceived value. Understanding this you can use it to your advantage. You can boost the percieved value of a book or meal or floral arrangement by boosting its pages, vegetables, or flowers. The recipient will feel better about getting and the buyer will feel better about paying for something with a higher perceived value.
  - fogus 15y ago
    Wow, great answer. I would love to read more about the psychology of this. Does it differ across cultures?
- Poiesis 15y ago
  Also consider that on a bookstore shelf, the bigger the book is, the more space it has to advertise itself. It is its own advertisement.
phren0logy 15y ago
I cannot speak to the accuracy of sales vs size, but I wholeheartedly support smaller, better books. I have seen this same trend in textbooks, and it's maddening. Nobody can work through an 800-page textbook on one semester, and it's easy to get the feeling that most of these are exhaustive for their own sake. Smaller, better books please. I have been, and will continue to, vote with my wallet.
CWuestefeld 15y ago
Agreed. Obviously K&R is a benchmark. But I'm also thinking of "Effective C++". This was a fairly thin book, but after reading it, I realized that I didn't know half as much about C++ as I thought I did, and in its relatively small number of pages, it taught me a hugely disproportionate amount of how C++ really works.
- knshaum 15y ago
  "Accelerated C++" is another good one. A bigger book than K&R, but not outrageously so, and much thinner than Stroustrup's or Lippman's texts. Rather than teaching C and then layering C++ constructs on top, it starts with idiomatic C++, then drills down to the C foundations as needed.
- adambyrtek 15y ago
  I love the format of the whole "Effective ..." series, especially the fact that the books are focused on best practices instead of individual language features.
seanm 15y ago
I found Little Schemer to be too elementary. I feel comfortable with lexical scoping and recursion, I was actually looking for more meat (let vs. let* vs. letrec). I'd recommend "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days".
- edw 15y ago
  _The Scheme Programming Language_ by Kent Dybvig is also very good. _Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs_ is my preferred "how to think in Scheme" book. I would recommend against _How to Design Programs_, which is entirely too pandering and focused on imperative programming for my tastes. http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/ http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/
  - ubasu 15y ago
    It seems there's a fourth edition: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ Also, Wikipedia says that "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days" is outdated in some parts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_Yourself_Scheme_in_Fixnum_Days http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_Yourself_Scheme_in_Fixnum...
    - sigzero 15y ago
      TSPL4 covers RSR6 which didn't go over very well with the community. TSPL3 is probably the better bet there.
  - m0nastic 15y ago
    For what it's worth, the second edition of How To Design Programs drops the imperative programming[1] and is available online[2]. I can't comment about the pandering though. [1] "This edition of the book drops the design of imperative programs. The old chapters remain available on-line" [2] http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/Draft/index.html http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/Draft/index.html
    - spacemanaki 15y ago
loy22 15y ago
I tried to learn programming but I was discouraged by the utter lack of pedagogy in the books I've picked so far. The author pretty much nailed it. I even tried Land of Lisp only because it was supposed to be fun, but unfortunately it used this horrible and widespread format where the author writes all the code for you and proceeds to an explanation. There is no creation (or creative problem solving) ! And creation is the fun component, it should be the point of programming. Later, I read the Little Schemer and I found it very fun and engaging. Because I had to think by myself, I realized I learned more in 30 minutes with the Little Schemer than 200 pages of Land of Lisp. My first attempt at programming was with an horribly dull PHP book. 5 stars on Amazon, but it was again the same format where the author writes all the code for you and then explains it, and did not provide any exercise. I think the perfect programming book would be a mix of the Little Schemer and K&R : the quiz format for the theory coupled with challenging exercises. There is no greater reward and way to learn than solving problems by yourself.
- tehjones 15y ago
  Personally I cannot learn from a book where I am just given concepts and supposed to find a solution. I find reading other code to be a much better learning method. I have seen most students prefer to presented with a whole working program and then expand on it in the challenges the book provides. The author of this article was expressing a desire for shorter books that give full code listings rather than code snippets and challenges that you seem to prefer.
- dkarl 15y ago
  For challenging Scheme exercises, check out the sample programming assignments for SICP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/index.html http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/index.html SICP itself (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/) is worth checking out, too. I doubt you would find the book itself to your taste, but there are programming exercises at the end of each section. Also, for what it's worth, my favorite language for working Project Euler problems is Scheme, by far.
edw 15y ago
I might never write another line of C in my life, but the K&R book will always have a place on my shelf due to many of the reasons given by the article's author. _The Unix Programming Environment_ and _The Practice of Programming_ are two other books that serve as inspirations, both as a writer and a programmer.
- silentbicycle 15y ago
  The common element here is Brian Kernighan. _The Awk Programming Language_ is excellent, too.
Kroem3r 15y ago
One of the points of unappreciated genius of C is that when I used it as a reference, the example code often had something to do with the issue that I was currently facing. It was if those guys had used the language for a few years building a diversity of things with it; kept notes; and then really thought about the future reader. I'd have thought that it was a revolutionary approach, not a historical oddity.
- thisrod 15y ago
  It was if those guys had used the language for a few years I hope that's a joke. If you don't know who K and R are, and where they wrote the book, you should look it up.

by peterb 15y ago

fogus 15y ago

Bigger books sell better. Is this true? I was always under the impression that bigness was used to justify a higher price point.

Calamitous 15y ago
I suspect it's a perception issue... the price difference between a slim programming book and a fat one is minimal. Dropping $50-$60 on a tome feels like a better value if you have to wheel it out with a dolly, instead of slipping it in your pocket.
- Apocryphon 15y ago
  I have to concur, unfortunately. If a tutorial book adds a huge reference section, I'd feel that it's a better deal for the same price- I may never look at the appendices, but I'll feel that I possibly could, just in case. Publishers ought to fix the pricing in general.
bgruber 15y ago
regardless of whether it's true, greenspun reported that it's what the publishers believe: "It is an article of faith in the computer publishing that bigger books sell better. They take up more space on the shelf and readers with a tech problem find a bigger book comforting. Readers aren't really sure what is wrong with their computer and they only have a few minutes in the bookstore so they figure the thickest book is the most likely to contain the solution." http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story
ChuckMcM 15y ago
Its absolutely true. The exact same effect occurs in restaurants and floral arrangements. There is a fixed cost, we'll call it X, to get the {book/meal/arrangement) made, the marginal cost of {paper/food/flowers) is small relative to the fixed cost and yet is the dominant factor in perceived value. Understanding this you can use it to your advantage. You can boost the percieved value of a book or meal or floral arrangement by boosting its pages, vegetables, or flowers. The recipient will feel better about getting and the buyer will feel better about paying for something with a higher perceived value.
- fogus 15y ago
  Wow, great answer. I would love to read more about the psychology of this. Does it differ across cultures?
Poiesis 15y ago
Also consider that on a bookstore shelf, the bigger the book is, the more space it has to advertise itself. It is its own advertisement.

phren0logy 15y ago

I cannot speak to the accuracy of sales vs size, but I wholeheartedly support smaller, better books. I have seen this same trend in textbooks, and it's maddening. Nobody can work through an 800-page textbook on one semester, and it's easy to get the feeling that most of these are exhaustive for their own sake. Smaller, better books please. I have been, and will continue to, vote with my wallet.

CWuestefeld 15y ago

Agreed. Obviously K&R is a benchmark. But I'm also thinking of "Effective C++". This was a fairly thin book, but after reading it, I realized that I didn't know half as much about C++ as I thought I did, and in its relatively small number of pages, it taught me a hugely disproportionate amount of how C++ really works.

knshaum 15y ago
"Accelerated C++" is another good one. A bigger book than K&R, but not outrageously so, and much thinner than Stroustrup's or Lippman's texts. Rather than teaching C and then layering C++ constructs on top, it starts with idiomatic C++, then drills down to the C foundations as needed.
adambyrtek 15y ago
I love the format of the whole "Effective ..." series, especially the fact that the books are focused on best practices instead of individual language features.

seanm 15y ago

I found Little Schemer to be too elementary. I feel comfortable with lexical scoping and recursion, I was actually looking for more meat (let vs. let* vs. letrec). I'd recommend "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days".

edw 15y ago
_The Scheme Programming Language_ by Kent Dybvig is also very good. _Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs_ is my preferred "how to think in Scheme" book. I would recommend against _How to Design Programs_, which is entirely too pandering and focused on imperative programming for my tastes. http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/ http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/
- ubasu 15y ago
  It seems there's a fourth edition: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ Also, Wikipedia says that "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days" is outdated in some parts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_Yourself_Scheme_in_Fixnum_Days http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_Yourself_Scheme_in_Fixnum...
  - sigzero 15y ago
    TSPL4 covers RSR6 which didn't go over very well with the community. TSPL3 is probably the better bet there.
- m0nastic 15y ago
  For what it's worth, the second edition of How To Design Programs drops the imperative programming[1] and is available online[2]. I can't comment about the pandering though. [1] "This edition of the book drops the design of imperative programs. The old chapters remain available on-line" [2] http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/Draft/index.html http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/Draft/index.html
  - spacemanaki 15y ago

loy22 15y ago

I tried to learn programming but I was discouraged by the utter lack of pedagogy in the books I've picked so far. The author pretty much nailed it. I even tried Land of Lisp only because it was supposed to be fun, but unfortunately it used this horrible and widespread format where the author writes all the code for you and proceeds to an explanation. There is no creation (or creative problem solving) ! And creation is the fun component, it should be the point of programming. Later, I read the Little Schemer and I found it very fun and engaging. Because I had to think by myself, I realized I learned more in 30 minutes with the Little Schemer than 200 pages of Land of Lisp. My first attempt at programming was with an horribly dull PHP book. 5 stars on Amazon, but it was again the same format where the author writes all the code for you and then explains it, and did not provide any exercise. I think the perfect programming book would be a mix of the Little Schemer and K&R : the quiz format for the theory coupled with challenging exercises. There is no greater reward and way to learn than solving problems by yourself.

tehjones 15y ago
Personally I cannot learn from a book where I am just given concepts and supposed to find a solution. I find reading other code to be a much better learning method. I have seen most students prefer to presented with a whole working program and then expand on it in the challenges the book provides. The author of this article was expressing a desire for shorter books that give full code listings rather than code snippets and challenges that you seem to prefer.
dkarl 15y ago
For challenging Scheme exercises, check out the sample programming assignments for SICP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/index.html http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/index.html SICP itself (http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/) is worth checking out, too. I doubt you would find the book itself to your taste, but there are programming exercises at the end of each section. Also, for what it's worth, my favorite language for working Project Euler problems is Scheme, by far.

edw 15y ago

I might never write another line of C in my life, but the K&R book will always have a place on my shelf due to many of the reasons given by the article's author. _The Unix Programming Environment_ and _The Practice of Programming_ are two other books that serve as inspirations, both as a writer and a programmer.

silentbicycle 15y ago
The common element here is Brian Kernighan. _The Awk Programming Language_ is excellent, too.

Kroem3r 15y ago

One of the points of unappreciated genius of C is that when I used it as a reference, the example code often had something to do with the issue that I was currently facing. It was if those guys had used the language for a few years building a diversity of things with it; kept notes; and then really thought about the future reader. I'd have thought that it was a revolutionary approach, not a historical oddity.

thisrod 15y ago
It was if those guys had used the language for a few years I hope that's a joke. If you don't know who K and R are, and where they wrote the book, you should look it up.