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I'm trying to learn some frontend as a backend developer(primarily .NET Core but I enjoy others like Elixir/Phoenix in my own time as well) to help other develo

by atraac 6y ago

I'm trying to learn some frontend as a backend developer(primarily .NET Core but I enjoy others like Elixir/Phoenix in my own time as well) to help other developer in our team, but no matter how many times I tried, I just can't get it. The barrier of entry is so insanely high right now, I just cannot force myself to get into it. It's not only million different tools, it also to me seems like every React codebase has a huge learning curve on its own because everyone does it differently. Not only that, but Javascript(or mostly Typescript now) is to me so unreadable when combined with parts of html sprinkled everywhere, that you really need to focus a lot just to understand what's in front of you, what it does, but I guess that part is just a matter of getting used to the language.

mhoad 6y ago
I don’t know if this is even an option for you but you might want to take a look at Angular especially if you already have an OO language background on the backend. Basically everything is standardised, you are mostly just writing classes the way you would for a desktop application, the majority of what makes the web frustrating to work with is abstracted away in a series of sensible patterns and overall the tooling is really great.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  > take a look at Angular especially if you already have an OO language background on the backend. Observables, pipes, operators, litany of custom attributes in the markup, the TS source code looks like Java. I'm literally starring now the 4th day at bunch of TS and HTML files only to duplicate a simple UI feature. Once done, writing tests for this mess. All this to create a web app which loads 5-10 seconds with 2 levels of loading spinners. I feel sorry for anyone whose job will be using the application. I actively procrastinate to delay touching it.
  - mhoad 6y ago
    I mentioned this more in my other commend on this thread but I should mention that I think the bar for when people reach for an SPA framework like Angular is probably a lot lower than is reasonable. Angular in particular is designed for enterprise style applications and that is about it. Everything you need for that doesn’t come for free in terms of complexity obviously. The other thing I mentioned elsewhere at the total other end of the spectrum was Hotwire. That is genuinely as close to 2006 web development as I can think of in terms of simplicity and is probably enough for the majority of applications up to and including an email client in the browser which is what they originally built it for.
- atraac 6y ago
  I did work with Angular a bit. It is admittedly better in my opinion in that context - it gives you kind of guard rails. But then an actual Angular developer came into the project and threw everything around to the point I wasn't recognizing the project anymore. I have to admit he was insanely productive with it as he actually had years of experience just in Angular. I have to admit, I mostly make 'backend uis' recently and for me Blazor(server for now) fills that niche insanely well, I've never been so productive when doing frontend work, it has its pitfalls as well, our code is probably not the cleanest, but the fact that I can include a project with all my models, services and just use that, makes it so satisfying to work with... I only ever had one similar feeling so far, when trying Phoenix.
julenx 6y ago
> It's not only million different tools, it also to me seems like every React codebase has a huge learning curve on its own because everyone does it differently. I've been writing React code on and off since 2014 and I can relate to the pain: component creation and API changes in React (especially hooks) have meant quite a different way to do things, and in my experience this resulted in making things harder to understand across the board. Life was simpler when `React.createClass()` was the only way to create components :)
- kristiandupont 6y ago
  Hooks and functional components are indeed a different way to look at it, but I sure am happy that they went that way. I doubt that we will see a paradigm shift like that in React again, at least in this decade. And they've been very good at maintaining backwards compatibility.

by atraac 6y ago

mhoad 6y ago

I don’t know if this is even an option for you but you might want to take a look at Angular especially if you already have an OO language background on the backend. Basically everything is standardised, you are mostly just writing classes the way you would for a desktop application, the majority of what makes the web frustrating to work with is abstracted away in a series of sensible patterns and overall the tooling is really great.

durnygbur 6y ago
> take a look at Angular especially if you already have an OO language background on the backend. Observables, pipes, operators, litany of custom attributes in the markup, the TS source code looks like Java. I'm literally starring now the 4th day at bunch of TS and HTML files only to duplicate a simple UI feature. Once done, writing tests for this mess. All this to create a web app which loads 5-10 seconds with 2 levels of loading spinners. I feel sorry for anyone whose job will be using the application. I actively procrastinate to delay touching it.
- mhoad 6y ago
  I mentioned this more in my other commend on this thread but I should mention that I think the bar for when people reach for an SPA framework like Angular is probably a lot lower than is reasonable. Angular in particular is designed for enterprise style applications and that is about it. Everything you need for that doesn’t come for free in terms of complexity obviously. The other thing I mentioned elsewhere at the total other end of the spectrum was Hotwire. That is genuinely as close to 2006 web development as I can think of in terms of simplicity and is probably enough for the majority of applications up to and including an email client in the browser which is what they originally built it for.
atraac 6y ago
I did work with Angular a bit. It is admittedly better in my opinion in that context - it gives you kind of guard rails. But then an actual Angular developer came into the project and threw everything around to the point I wasn't recognizing the project anymore. I have to admit he was insanely productive with it as he actually had years of experience just in Angular. I have to admit, I mostly make 'backend uis' recently and for me Blazor(server for now) fills that niche insanely well, I've never been so productive when doing frontend work, it has its pitfalls as well, our code is probably not the cleanest, but the fact that I can include a project with all my models, services and just use that, makes it so satisfying to work with... I only ever had one similar feeling so far, when trying Phoenix.

julenx 6y ago

> It's not only million different tools, it also to me seems like every React codebase has a huge learning curve on its own because everyone does it differently. I've been writing React code on and off since 2014 and I can relate to the pain: component creation and API changes in React (especially hooks) have meant quite a different way to do things, and in my experience this resulted in making things harder to understand across the board. Life was simpler when `React.createClass()` was the only way to create components :)

kristiandupont 6y ago
Hooks and functional components are indeed a different way to look at it, but I sure am happy that they went that way. I doubt that we will see a paradigm shift like that in React again, at least in this decade. And they've been very good at maintaining backwards compatibility.