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I didn't say anything hateful towards women. I think women get this better treatment then men but I didn't say they should turn it down nor did I say they didn'

I didn't say anything hateful towards women. I think women get this better treatment then men but I didn't say they should turn it down nor did I say they didn't deserve it. I simply pointed out a difference. And what wrong with switching from Janitor to SWE? Same basic job switch from one another field with completely different skillets but completely different treatment due to perceived ranking.

wizzard 6y ago
The problem is that you are likening her to a janitor to create the impression that she has zero programming experience. First of all, if you'd read the article you'll find she probably has as much experience as a lot of bootcamp grads. You're also kind of insulting janitors by assuming none of them could possibly have any coding skills. So many people nowadays learn coding using "non-traditional" means, and some of those people are REALLY good. Her skills were evaluated over a period of time and she was found to be worthy of a place. Why is that so difficult to believe? If this story were about a man, how would your reaction be different?
- Geminidog 6y ago
  >The problem is that you are likening her to a janitor to create the impression that she has zero programming experience. You're completely right. Change "janitor" to "janitor who went to bootcamp" and my statement still stands. This girl didn't even go to bootcamp. Stop implying I have insulted people. I haven't said anything hateful at all. >If this story were about a man, how would your reaction be different? My reaction would be completely different. You're right. You could actually go find a similar story for a man, post it here and that can help change my view on this subject. The more similar stories you find for men who have done this the more evidence you will have to support your case. As it stands I find that it is much less likely for a man to be offered this act of charity. My views are based off of anecdotal evidence and I will flip flop my views and do a full 360 based off of all available data. As a side note, men tend to find rank more important learning a new skill or career. Due to this less men will even try to take up this deal when offered the opportunity. I think it has happened but it's just much less likely. To build a realistic data set you need to find the percentages success vs. failures of both men and women who have tried a horizontal career switch within the same company. Unfortunately this data is likely very hard to build so both of our arguments are quite speculative. Still I have anecdotal data, you haven't offered any.
kazinator 6y ago
> I think women get this better treatment Don't forget that chubby, 59-year-old females are also women, though.
- Geminidog 6y ago
  Good point. It's an attraction thing. Women who are unattractive do not have these advantages.
kristinamay 6y ago
(Blog post author here) Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective). Asserting that someone working in UX research/design is in an entirely unrelated field from software development is also wildly incorrect. UX folks work with SWEs regularly and are working on the same projects, albeit from a different perspective. There are also examples of men at my company making fairly similar changes across organizations. I'd love for you to take a minute and consider why you approached my story with the preconceived notion that I've only gotten this opportunity because I'm a woman.
- Geminidog 6y ago
  >Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective). It was not intended as an insult, so apologies. But I still stand by my statements because I believe them to be true. Other things that will lead to clearer views on this is your overall software skills relative to other people in the same position, but such ratings are also colored with the lens of bias. As it stands though, the deal is still obviously uneconomical and therefore a charity or a gift to you. Nothing wrong with this and it wasn't intended as an insult. >There are also examples of men at my company making fairly similar changes across organizations If that's the case present your data! This will definitely help change my view point. >I'd love for you to take a minute and consider why you approached my story with the preconceived notion that I've only gotten this opportunity because I'm a woman. I have. It is not preconceived. The hypothesis was made based off of available data. Like I said, the business deal the company made with you is not economical, so there must be another reason why the company gave you such a one sided deal when they can get a better deal. My assumption is that part of it is because of your sex and your looks. This goes inline with my anecdotal experience of working with women in engineering. If your saying the exact reason why you were hired over say a new CS grad or boot camper is because of your domain knowledge and UX experience, then sure I grant you that as a major possibility. However it does not discount the possibility that what I said is true. You wouldn't know because you manager either gave you that deal subconsciously or he won't admit it. There's really no avenue to determine either argument definitively. I propose not continuing. As a side note, I've worked hard to get where I am right now. And no company paid me to learn software on the job. If they did it would be an act of charity and I would be grateful to them if they did.

wizzard 6y ago

The problem is that you are likening her to a janitor to create the impression that she has zero programming experience. First of all, if you'd read the article you'll find she probably has as much experience as a lot of bootcamp grads. You're also kind of insulting janitors by assuming none of them could possibly have any coding skills. So many people nowadays learn coding using "non-traditional" means, and some of those people are REALLY good. Her skills were evaluated over a period of time and she was found to be worthy of a place. Why is that so difficult to believe? If this story were about a man, how would your reaction be different?

Geminidog 6y ago
>The problem is that you are likening her to a janitor to create the impression that she has zero programming experience. You're completely right. Change "janitor" to "janitor who went to bootcamp" and my statement still stands. This girl didn't even go to bootcamp. Stop implying I have insulted people. I haven't said anything hateful at all. >If this story were about a man, how would your reaction be different? My reaction would be completely different. You're right. You could actually go find a similar story for a man, post it here and that can help change my view on this subject. The more similar stories you find for men who have done this the more evidence you will have to support your case. As it stands I find that it is much less likely for a man to be offered this act of charity. My views are based off of anecdotal evidence and I will flip flop my views and do a full 360 based off of all available data. As a side note, men tend to find rank more important learning a new skill or career. Due to this less men will even try to take up this deal when offered the opportunity. I think it has happened but it's just much less likely. To build a realistic data set you need to find the percentages success vs. failures of both men and women who have tried a horizontal career switch within the same company. Unfortunately this data is likely very hard to build so both of our arguments are quite speculative. Still I have anecdotal data, you haven't offered any.

kazinator 6y ago

> I think women get this better treatment Don't forget that chubby, 59-year-old females are also women, though.

Geminidog 6y ago
Good point. It's an attraction thing. Women who are unattractive do not have these advantages.

kristinamay 6y ago

(Blog post author here) Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective). Asserting that someone working in UX research/design is in an entirely unrelated field from software development is also wildly incorrect. UX folks work with SWEs regularly and are working on the same projects, albeit from a different perspective. There are also examples of men at my company making fairly similar changes across organizations. I'd love for you to take a minute and consider why you approached my story with the preconceived notion that I've only gotten this opportunity because I'm a woman.

Geminidog 6y ago
>Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective). It was not intended as an insult, so apologies. But I still stand by my statements because I believe them to be true. Other things that will lead to clearer views on this is your overall software skills relative to other people in the same position, but such ratings are also colored with the lens of bias. As it stands though, the deal is still obviously uneconomical and therefore a charity or a gift to you. Nothing wrong with this and it wasn't intended as an insult. >There are also examples of men at my company making fairly similar changes across organizations If that's the case present your data! This will definitely help change my view point. >I'd love for you to take a minute and consider why you approached my story with the preconceived notion that I've only gotten this opportunity because I'm a woman. I have. It is not preconceived. The hypothesis was made based off of available data. Like I said, the business deal the company made with you is not economical, so there must be another reason why the company gave you such a one sided deal when they can get a better deal. My assumption is that part of it is because of your sex and your looks. This goes inline with my anecdotal experience of working with women in engineering. If your saying the exact reason why you were hired over say a new CS grad or boot camper is because of your domain knowledge and UX experience, then sure I grant you that as a major possibility. However it does not discount the possibility that what I said is true. You wouldn't know because you manager either gave you that deal subconsciously or he won't admit it. There's really no avenue to determine either argument definitively. I propose not continuing. As a side note, I've worked hard to get where I am right now. And no company paid me to learn software on the job. If they did it would be an act of charity and I would be grateful to them if they did.