6 ms·

I just get a feeling that no matter how privileged you are, how intelligent you are, how high or low a position you are in, or how much money you make there is

I just get a feeling that no matter how privileged you are, how intelligent you are, how high or low a position you are in, or how much money you make there is going to be some random article on HN to make you feel insecure.

gumby 6y ago
What about it makes you insecure? It's about someone who changed jobs because they decided they'd prefer to do something else. It isn't one of those "in six weeks I turned my side gig into a Nobel-prize winning web site and now I'm a billionaire" clickbait articles.
- ysavir 6y ago
  Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Many people might come across the title, and although not interested in reading it, walk away with the idea that following dreams leads to negative consequences. I hope the author changes it.
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    Yeah, the title of the article is pretty poor. It kind of sounds like someone who was promoted from a developer to something else, rose to the level of their incompetence, then reversed the promotion to go back to doing what they enjoyed. This person was not a developer previously, so I don't understand how they were "demoted." Other than management > individual contributor. What really happened was they changed jobs to do something they found more fulfilling. Which is great, but if I decided to change careers to building furniture, I wouldn't say I "got demoted to making furniture."
    - purple-again 6y ago
      They were director of design! I am not part of that company so it’s possible that director is a joke there but in most companies that’s the highest level prior to the c suite/owners (public company/professional services firms). That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. Going from that to “just a coder” ie one team member of one team responsible for only their contributions to their current projects. In nearly every organization that would be a huge demotion WITH a huge pay cut. In this instance because coders are paid so much more than most other professions it’s possible it was a lateral move or even a pay raise! But no question as far as responsibility for the direction of the organization it’s a huge demotion.
      - bradlys 6y ago
        > That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. As someone who has worked at a variety of companies - this isn't true. It's just a title. I've seen plenty of "director of X" with no direct reports. I don't know how big Stack Overflow's design department is but with only 300 people in the company - I can't imagine it being massive enough to warrant a typical director title you'd see at some truly big corps where a director has 50+ people under them.
        daniellarusso 6y ago
        I have seen all members of a sales team all have the title of ‘Director of Business Development’ simultaneously. I don’t know what one calls the director of directors, though.
        lazide 6y ago
        Senior director or Vice President (or in a team like you describe, ‘sales manager’ hah)
      - itronitron 6y ago
        Outside of the film industry, director is usually a joke title.
  - ballenf 6y ago
    > Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. Not seeing the connection with that and feeling inferior. I agree with your point, just still can't figure out the top level comment.
    - ysavir 6y ago
      Not feeling inferior, but feeling insecure. The message in the title can easily reinforce people's insecurities and discourage them from pursuing their dreams, because they'll just get "demoted".
      - gumby 6y ago
        We have a fairly diversified economy. If you feel promotion is more important to you, pursue that. If you feel performing a different kind of task is important to you, pursue that. Neither is "better" in some absolute sense, much less moral sense. Life is full of tradeoffs though sometimes they are easy and that's wonderful ("doing X isn't worth the money to me" or "I don't really like doing Y but I don't mind because the extra money will allow me to Z"). Some people couldn't care less about titles (e.g. me) while some people think they are even more important than pay (e.g. my mum who grew up in such a culture). I can't claim either is bad or wrong; people just have different itches to scratch. The "choices" we should worry about are those forced upon people who don't actually have a choice ("I have to drag myself to my second minimum wage job because otherwise I'll be homeless").
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    Director to junior engineer is absolutely a demotion (albeit a voluntary one), and might even come with a paycut.
  - pc86 6y ago
    She was a director (manager of managers), so going from that to an IC developer is absolutely a demotion by any definition of the word.
    - ysavir 6y ago
      If you want to be strict, sure. But there's no arguing that when people hear the term "demotion", it's almost universally regarded as a non-voluntary change of negative consequence. Perhaps if the title was "To follow my dreams I asked my manager for a demotion" it would be decent usage, but the current phrasing in the title is entirely misleading. It's probably the use of the word "got", implying that it was an external decision, not their own.
    - throwaheyy 6y ago
      Not really if it’s by choice. She decided more to “retire” from being a director. A “demotion” is involuntary. It’s not a demotion in the same way that voluntarily deciding on a career change from IC to management is not a promotion. A promotion is given to someone, not chosen by them.
  - JJMcJ 6y ago
    The online article's title is a bit less click bait than the transcription here on HN, but it's still misleading. "I followed my dreams, left management, and love being a coder again" might be more on target. Demotion has a very negative connotation.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Well, it is a demotion, though: "reduction in rank or status". And it's interesting here exactly because it was by choice.
  - itronitron 6y ago
    The title undermines any message that the author may have cared about conveying. This is why I rarely read articles where the title has a whiff of clickbait.
hinkley 6y ago
Security is an illusion and like kerning, you can both inform and break people by bringing their attention to the 'solutions' to that problem. There are other ways to look at the world. In some ways they can be both more and less stressful than contemporary western ideology.
- malux85 6y ago
  Curious, can you elaborate?
  - hinkley 6y ago
    I'm not the best messenger, but nothing is certain, and in some cases fighting against it makes you more susceptible to crushing disappointment. If you want to go all the way to Eastern Philosophy, you can, but even without going into that, there comes a point where contingency planning is more fruitful than doubling down on trying to force a thing to happen no matter what. Memento mori (remember you will die) as the Stoics say. Certainty is an illusion, one that romantic partners and anxious bosses in particular don't want to hear about. Great insight for a smoke jumper, not so good for valentine's day or SLA violations.
twitch-chat 6y ago
I get a feeling you commented after reading the headline and didn't read the article. This is a positive story and I'm glad the person was given the opportunity to chase her dreams.
- VSerge 6y ago
  I second this wholeheartedly, it is a very positive story, albeit with a cheeky title. The article explains how a person in a "higher" position (director of design) made the active choice to change career path and start again as an associate developer. It didn't come out of thin air, as this person had been coding as a hobby for a few years (Ludum Dare rocks!). So she actually did have some skills, though maybe not as formal or structured as say, a tech recruiter, might want to. Furthermore, it's great that she is working in an organisation that would support such a change. It makes this career change much easier than having to quit your job and trying to get gigs or get hired without having formal credentials or experience.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Spooky23 6y ago
Don't look at it that way! Sometimes we by nature map self-worth to title... don't do it! At this point in my career, I'm a senior director, accountable for nine figures of turnover annually and driving things that truly matter and are meaningful to me. I'm reasonably good at what I do, and am blessed to have an incredible team. But, if I could make the money work and not have to relocate, I'd happily be a staff engineer again. I miss the technical problem solving (ie. learning alot about a thing vs. learning a little about 100 things), the small team and mentoring new people. I'm not grousing, it's just a different set of things, but I think that I would miss the "perks" of what I do now less. It also makes an impression on me that for a brief window, technical "stuff" made me a rockstar to my nieces and nephews 10-15 years ago. Now, my 9 year old eyerolls at my "conference call commando" skills.

gumby 6y ago

What about it makes you insecure? It's about someone who changed jobs because they decided they'd prefer to do something else. It isn't one of those "in six weeks I turned my side gig into a Nobel-prize winning web site and now I'm a billionaire" clickbait articles.

ysavir 6y ago
Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Many people might come across the title, and although not interested in reading it, walk away with the idea that following dreams leads to negative consequences. I hope the author changes it.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  Yeah, the title of the article is pretty poor. It kind of sounds like someone who was promoted from a developer to something else, rose to the level of their incompetence, then reversed the promotion to go back to doing what they enjoyed. This person was not a developer previously, so I don't understand how they were "demoted." Other than management > individual contributor. What really happened was they changed jobs to do something they found more fulfilling. Which is great, but if I decided to change careers to building furniture, I wouldn't say I "got demoted to making furniture."
  - purple-again 6y ago
    They were director of design! I am not part of that company so it’s possible that director is a joke there but in most companies that’s the highest level prior to the c suite/owners (public company/professional services firms). That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. Going from that to “just a coder” ie one team member of one team responsible for only their contributions to their current projects. In nearly every organization that would be a huge demotion WITH a huge pay cut. In this instance because coders are paid so much more than most other professions it’s possible it was a lateral move or even a pay raise! But no question as far as responsibility for the direction of the organization it’s a huge demotion.
    - bradlys 6y ago
      > That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. As someone who has worked at a variety of companies - this isn't true. It's just a title. I've seen plenty of "director of X" with no direct reports. I don't know how big Stack Overflow's design department is but with only 300 people in the company - I can't imagine it being massive enough to warrant a typical director title you'd see at some truly big corps where a director has 50+ people under them.
      - daniellarusso 6y ago
        I have seen all members of a sales team all have the title of ‘Director of Business Development’ simultaneously. I don’t know what one calls the director of directors, though.
        lazide 6y ago
        Senior director or Vice President (or in a team like you describe, ‘sales manager’ hah)
    - itronitron 6y ago
      Outside of the film industry, director is usually a joke title.
- ballenf 6y ago
  > Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. Not seeing the connection with that and feeling inferior. I agree with your point, just still can't figure out the top level comment.
  - ysavir 6y ago
    Not feeling inferior, but feeling insecure. The message in the title can easily reinforce people's insecurities and discourage them from pursuing their dreams, because they'll just get "demoted".
    - gumby 6y ago
      We have a fairly diversified economy. If you feel promotion is more important to you, pursue that. If you feel performing a different kind of task is important to you, pursue that. Neither is "better" in some absolute sense, much less moral sense. Life is full of tradeoffs though sometimes they are easy and that's wonderful ("doing X isn't worth the money to me" or "I don't really like doing Y but I don't mind because the extra money will allow me to Z"). Some people couldn't care less about titles (e.g. me) while some people think they are even more important than pay (e.g. my mum who grew up in such a culture). I can't claim either is bad or wrong; people just have different itches to scratch. The "choices" we should worry about are those forced upon people who don't actually have a choice ("I have to drag myself to my second minimum wage job because otherwise I'll be homeless").
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  Director to junior engineer is absolutely a demotion (albeit a voluntary one), and might even come with a paycut.
- pc86 6y ago
  She was a director (manager of managers), so going from that to an IC developer is absolutely a demotion by any definition of the word.
  - ysavir 6y ago
    If you want to be strict, sure. But there's no arguing that when people hear the term "demotion", it's almost universally regarded as a non-voluntary change of negative consequence. Perhaps if the title was "To follow my dreams I asked my manager for a demotion" it would be decent usage, but the current phrasing in the title is entirely misleading. It's probably the use of the word "got", implying that it was an external decision, not their own.
  - throwaheyy 6y ago
    Not really if it’s by choice. She decided more to “retire” from being a director. A “demotion” is involuntary. It’s not a demotion in the same way that voluntarily deciding on a career change from IC to management is not a promotion. A promotion is given to someone, not chosen by them.
- JJMcJ 6y ago
  The online article's title is a bit less click bait than the transcription here on HN, but it's still misleading. "I followed my dreams, left management, and love being a coder again" might be more on target. Demotion has a very negative connotation.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Well, it is a demotion, though: "reduction in rank or status". And it's interesting here exactly because it was by choice.
- itronitron 6y ago
  The title undermines any message that the author may have cared about conveying. This is why I rarely read articles where the title has a whiff of clickbait.

hinkley 6y ago

Security is an illusion and like kerning, you can both inform and break people by bringing their attention to the 'solutions' to that problem. There are other ways to look at the world. In some ways they can be both more and less stressful than contemporary western ideology.

malux85 6y ago
Curious, can you elaborate?
- hinkley 6y ago
  I'm not the best messenger, but nothing is certain, and in some cases fighting against it makes you more susceptible to crushing disappointment. If you want to go all the way to Eastern Philosophy, you can, but even without going into that, there comes a point where contingency planning is more fruitful than doubling down on trying to force a thing to happen no matter what. Memento mori (remember you will die) as the Stoics say. Certainty is an illusion, one that romantic partners and anxious bosses in particular don't want to hear about. Great insight for a smoke jumper, not so good for valentine's day or SLA violations.

twitch-chat 6y ago

I get a feeling you commented after reading the headline and didn't read the article. This is a positive story and I'm glad the person was given the opportunity to chase her dreams.

VSerge 6y ago
I second this wholeheartedly, it is a very positive story, albeit with a cheeky title. The article explains how a person in a "higher" position (director of design) made the active choice to change career path and start again as an associate developer. It didn't come out of thin air, as this person had been coding as a hobby for a few years (Ludum Dare rocks!). So she actually did have some skills, though maybe not as formal or structured as say, a tech recruiter, might want to. Furthermore, it's great that she is working in an organisation that would support such a change. It makes this career change much easier than having to quit your job and trying to get gigs or get hired without having formal credentials or experience.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Spooky23 6y ago

Don't look at it that way! Sometimes we by nature map self-worth to title... don't do it! At this point in my career, I'm a senior director, accountable for nine figures of turnover annually and driving things that truly matter and are meaningful to me. I'm reasonably good at what I do, and am blessed to have an incredible team. But, if I could make the money work and not have to relocate, I'd happily be a staff engineer again. I miss the technical problem solving (ie. learning alot about a thing vs. learning a little about 100 things), the small team and mentoring new people. I'm not grousing, it's just a different set of things, but I think that I would miss the "perks" of what I do now less. It also makes an impression on me that for a brief window, technical "stuff" made me a rockstar to my nieces and nephews 10-15 years ago. Now, my 9 year old eyerolls at my "conference call commando" skills.