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Kind of hopeful we can stop using genetics as a way of justifying queer peoples' existence. Whether it's conditioning, a choice, or genetics, shouldn't really b

Kind of hopeful we can stop using genetics as a way of justifying queer peoples' existence. Whether it's conditioning, a choice, or genetics, shouldn't really be a factor in how you treat queer people.

rootusrootus 6y ago
That would be ideal, but some people need to be convinced that it is not a choice before they will consider treating gay people with respect. So long as they think it's just a behavioral decision, they can rationalize their bigotry.
- bzb6 6y ago
  If anything this headline means the opposite, right? That you are not born a homosexual, at least from a genetic perspective.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    I don't think it's making that strong a claim. They can't identify a specific gene. That's not quite "you are not born a homosexual." Plenty of studies over the years have shown statistically very significant genetic links. We just can't explain the exact mechanism yet.
  - btilly 6y ago
    It is much more nuanced than that. What they found was 5 areas of the genome that had predictive potential for people being gay or straight. Combined, they were able to predict about 25% of what makes someone gay. The other 75% is environmental. Note that some "environmental factors" may still be genetic in nature. For example there is strong evidence in animals that the prenatal environment has an impact on homosexual behavior. Which means that a mother's genetics can be correlated with her children's sexuality. Therefore a gene could impact homosexuality through changing the environment in the mother's womb. In that case the child having that gene would be correlated with the child being homosexual and the gene would show up in this study. But the differences between the child's genetics and the mother's would be an environmental factor.
- exporectomy 6y ago
  Those people are going to be bigots regardless, towards all the other things that are behavioral, such as most mental illness, addictions, sports accidents, drug convictions, political persuasion, religion, etc. So many ways to be judgmental of people's behaviors.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  Bigots can accuse you of being genetically defective just as well as they can accuse you of sinful behaviour. Pandering to what bigots need is not productive or helpful.
hisabness 6y ago
could still be a mix of genes. agree with your last sentence.
klmadfejno 6y ago
If you want people to be treated equally, wouldn't you want their existence to be justified? It's difficult to think of a PC analogy here, so maybe... super villain mind control device strapped to someone's head. Provably unjustified behaviors due to the mind control device implies the ethical thing to do is try to remove the device. Treating someone normally implies an implicit belief that they're normal. Sound biological evidence that being queer is just how some people are feels like the best way to reinforce that belief and remove requirements for heteronormativity.
- bonoetmalo 6y ago
  I acknowledge this is the prerequisite a lot of people need to justify queer peoples' existence. > wouldn't you want their existence to be justified In my ideal world, I would want my existence to be justified even if I 100% chose to be bisexual, gay, trans, etc. So yes, I do want it to be justified, but I don't want genetics to be the justification.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    Hmm, maybe this is a pointless semantic argument, but being justified by a choice sounds like its just passing the ball to justification for the choice. In a world where identity is proven to be 100% just a choice, that sounds like its not justified, and while not deserving of discrimination, to some extent committed to being non-normative. This paper suggests genetics control at least 25% of variance in sexual orientation. We know hormone profiles control another decently large proportion. Are you saying you are upset that deterministic factors cause queer identities? or are you trying to say you wish a deterministic factor for queer identities wasn't necessary for equal treatment? The first feels strange, the latter makes a lot of sense.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      If pedophilia turns out to be 26% determined by genetics, would the existence of pedophiles be more "justified" than the existence of homosexuals? The reason we should be tolerant of homosexuality is because it's as healthy and harmless as heterosexuality, not because it's some sort of handicap.

rootusrootus 6y ago

That would be ideal, but some people need to be convinced that it is not a choice before they will consider treating gay people with respect. So long as they think it's just a behavioral decision, they can rationalize their bigotry.

bzb6 6y ago
If anything this headline means the opposite, right? That you are not born a homosexual, at least from a genetic perspective.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I don't think it's making that strong a claim. They can't identify a specific gene. That's not quite "you are not born a homosexual." Plenty of studies over the years have shown statistically very significant genetic links. We just can't explain the exact mechanism yet.
- btilly 6y ago
  It is much more nuanced than that. What they found was 5 areas of the genome that had predictive potential for people being gay or straight. Combined, they were able to predict about 25% of what makes someone gay. The other 75% is environmental. Note that some "environmental factors" may still be genetic in nature. For example there is strong evidence in animals that the prenatal environment has an impact on homosexual behavior. Which means that a mother's genetics can be correlated with her children's sexuality. Therefore a gene could impact homosexuality through changing the environment in the mother's womb. In that case the child having that gene would be correlated with the child being homosexual and the gene would show up in this study. But the differences between the child's genetics and the mother's would be an environmental factor.
exporectomy 6y ago
Those people are going to be bigots regardless, towards all the other things that are behavioral, such as most mental illness, addictions, sports accidents, drug convictions, political persuasion, religion, etc. So many ways to be judgmental of people's behaviors.
throwaway2245 6y ago
Bigots can accuse you of being genetically defective just as well as they can accuse you of sinful behaviour. Pandering to what bigots need is not productive or helpful.

hisabness 6y ago

could still be a mix of genes. agree with your last sentence.

klmadfejno 6y ago

If you want people to be treated equally, wouldn't you want their existence to be justified? It's difficult to think of a PC analogy here, so maybe... super villain mind control device strapped to someone's head. Provably unjustified behaviors due to the mind control device implies the ethical thing to do is try to remove the device. Treating someone normally implies an implicit belief that they're normal. Sound biological evidence that being queer is just how some people are feels like the best way to reinforce that belief and remove requirements for heteronormativity.

bonoetmalo 6y ago
I acknowledge this is the prerequisite a lot of people need to justify queer peoples' existence. > wouldn't you want their existence to be justified In my ideal world, I would want my existence to be justified even if I 100% chose to be bisexual, gay, trans, etc. So yes, I do want it to be justified, but I don't want genetics to be the justification.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  Hmm, maybe this is a pointless semantic argument, but being justified by a choice sounds like its just passing the ball to justification for the choice. In a world where identity is proven to be 100% just a choice, that sounds like its not justified, and while not deserving of discrimination, to some extent committed to being non-normative. This paper suggests genetics control at least 25% of variance in sexual orientation. We know hormone profiles control another decently large proportion. Are you saying you are upset that deterministic factors cause queer identities? or are you trying to say you wish a deterministic factor for queer identities wasn't necessary for equal treatment? The first feels strange, the latter makes a lot of sense.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    If pedophilia turns out to be 26% determined by genetics, would the existence of pedophiles be more "justified" than the existence of homosexuals? The reason we should be tolerant of homosexuality is because it's as healthy and harmless as heterosexuality, not because it's some sort of handicap.