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Without bitcoin the problem wouldn't be to be fixed as it wouldn't be a problem. Its also not the responsibility of the world to create unlimited carbon neutra

Without bitcoin the problem wouldn't be to be fixed as it wouldn't be a problem. Its also not the responsibility of the world to create unlimited carbon neutral power source for bitcoin. Bitcoin needs to solve a real issue worth solving, which it doesn't.

emteycz 6y ago
Or maybe "without subsidies damaging the environment there wouldn't be a problem"? We can only thank Bitcoin for uncovering it, this subsidy needs to stop ASAP. That Bitcoin didn't solve your problems doesn't mean it didn't solve real issues worth solving. Bitcoin solved the problem of quickly and cheaply moving money across the world without risking it will be lost. I was unable to move money between Africa and Europe before Bitcoin, now it's quick, cheap and reliable. Moving money between the USA and Europe also used to be problematic (took long and was expensive, at least it was reliable though), now with Bitcoin it's very easy. Since Bitcoin uses waste electricity (you will immediately loose a lot of money mining with ordinary electricity), it doesn't make anything worse - of course as long as governments don't kick the balance away.
- Lapitotapito 6y ago
  'waste' electricity; Right. Not a single bitcoin miner in europe would use waste electricity; China banned bitcoin mining due to grid issues; So tell me again who has enough money to waste energy? Bitcoin is balanced by the energy market otherwise it will deflate. IF its becoming worthless to do that job, bitcoin can't work, therefore it will always be cost effective somehow. This still doesn't mean, that there is no better alternative.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    You tell me who has enough money to waste energy, you're the one claiming not a single miner in Europe would use waste electricity - I really would like to know who has so much money they continuously mine with electricity 3 times more expensive than the earnings.
    - Lapitotapito 6y ago
      This is not the point. 'waste' energy means energy which you could not have used otherwise. If it is cost effective to mine bitcoin in europe, then europe will just produce more energy for your usecase independently if it is useful to do so or not as long as it is cost effective. This is not 'waste' energy; Its energy prodcued for your bitcoin mining. Would the world be better of without bitcoin? Holy shit yes. Do you know why farmers produce opium? Not because it is using waste farmland, because others are paying them more money for it then for food to consume. Its the same issue with bitcoin.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        This is absolutely false. Electricity is not at all easy (=> very hard) to store or transport, and every day megawatts go to literal waste - which is where Bitcoin miners step in. Stories about Europe making more electricity for Bitcoin miners are lies, there are few private geothermal powerplants built for that purpose and that's it. Bitcoin mining is not some goldmine (or opium farm), it takes very careful planning for electricity costs, careful contracts and careful operation; it's absolutely impossible to profitably mine Bitcoin using ordinary (industrial) electricity from the grid, very unlike opium farming. > Would the world be better of without bitcoin? Holy shit yes. Don't speak for others. I never want to go back to world without Bitcoin. Sure, come up with something better, but no world would not be better off without it. Millions of people have better life thanks to it.
        Lapitotapito 6y ago
        Come on... State one of your claims with hard data and not just wishful thinking. Your bitcoin miner don't have load control to make sure they consume the excess power. They just consume as much as possible. And yes its still the same as opium farming; I can also give you annother example: when crops are used for biofuel, suddenly its financial better to produce energy instead of food. Happend in germany and other places. I have NO IDEA why you would think that bitcoin mining is done by magical high intelligent controling systems. Haven't you seen any documentation on bitcoin mining operations at all? I mined bitcoins myself a few years back at home as well. https://www.primafelicitas.com/5-biggest-bitcoin-mining-farms-you-should-know-about/ https://www.primafelicitas.com/5-biggest-bitcoin-mining-farm... none of them did this for using 'waste' energy, they all did it for th emoney. Missusing subsidised cheap electricity and now increasing competition for energy. And there have been enough stories on grid failers in china and regulators stopping those mining farms due to this. "Millions of people have better life thanks to it." <<< this sentence is really weird. Are you talking about real people having a real benefit of bitcoin or are you talking about people getting rich of bitcoin by polluting our planet with unnecessary co2 and increased prices for others?
shawnz 6y ago
While you may not agree with the ecological trade-offs, you would be arguing against reality to say that people aren't using Bitcoin to solve real issues right now.

emteycz 6y ago

Or maybe "without subsidies damaging the environment there wouldn't be a problem"? We can only thank Bitcoin for uncovering it, this subsidy needs to stop ASAP. That Bitcoin didn't solve your problems doesn't mean it didn't solve real issues worth solving. Bitcoin solved the problem of quickly and cheaply moving money across the world without risking it will be lost. I was unable to move money between Africa and Europe before Bitcoin, now it's quick, cheap and reliable. Moving money between the USA and Europe also used to be problematic (took long and was expensive, at least it was reliable though), now with Bitcoin it's very easy. Since Bitcoin uses waste electricity (you will immediately loose a lot of money mining with ordinary electricity), it doesn't make anything worse - of course as long as governments don't kick the balance away.

Lapitotapito 6y ago
'waste' electricity; Right. Not a single bitcoin miner in europe would use waste electricity; China banned bitcoin mining due to grid issues; So tell me again who has enough money to waste energy? Bitcoin is balanced by the energy market otherwise it will deflate. IF its becoming worthless to do that job, bitcoin can't work, therefore it will always be cost effective somehow. This still doesn't mean, that there is no better alternative.
- emteycz 6y ago
  You tell me who has enough money to waste energy, you're the one claiming not a single miner in Europe would use waste electricity - I really would like to know who has so much money they continuously mine with electricity 3 times more expensive than the earnings.
  - Lapitotapito 6y ago
    This is not the point. 'waste' energy means energy which you could not have used otherwise. If it is cost effective to mine bitcoin in europe, then europe will just produce more energy for your usecase independently if it is useful to do so or not as long as it is cost effective. This is not 'waste' energy; Its energy prodcued for your bitcoin mining. Would the world be better of without bitcoin? Holy shit yes. Do you know why farmers produce opium? Not because it is using waste farmland, because others are paying them more money for it then for food to consume. Its the same issue with bitcoin.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      This is absolutely false. Electricity is not at all easy (=> very hard) to store or transport, and every day megawatts go to literal waste - which is where Bitcoin miners step in. Stories about Europe making more electricity for Bitcoin miners are lies, there are few private geothermal powerplants built for that purpose and that's it. Bitcoin mining is not some goldmine (or opium farm), it takes very careful planning for electricity costs, careful contracts and careful operation; it's absolutely impossible to profitably mine Bitcoin using ordinary (industrial) electricity from the grid, very unlike opium farming. > Would the world be better of without bitcoin? Holy shit yes. Don't speak for others. I never want to go back to world without Bitcoin. Sure, come up with something better, but no world would not be better off without it. Millions of people have better life thanks to it.
      - Lapitotapito 6y ago
        Come on... State one of your claims with hard data and not just wishful thinking. Your bitcoin miner don't have load control to make sure they consume the excess power. They just consume as much as possible. And yes its still the same as opium farming; I can also give you annother example: when crops are used for biofuel, suddenly its financial better to produce energy instead of food. Happend in germany and other places. I have NO IDEA why you would think that bitcoin mining is done by magical high intelligent controling systems. Haven't you seen any documentation on bitcoin mining operations at all? I mined bitcoins myself a few years back at home as well. https://www.primafelicitas.com/5-biggest-bitcoin-mining-farms-you-should-know-about/ https://www.primafelicitas.com/5-biggest-bitcoin-mining-farm... none of them did this for using 'waste' energy, they all did it for th emoney. Missusing subsidised cheap electricity and now increasing competition for energy. And there have been enough stories on grid failers in china and regulators stopping those mining farms due to this. "Millions of people have better life thanks to it." <<< this sentence is really weird. Are you talking about real people having a real benefit of bitcoin or are you talking about people getting rich of bitcoin by polluting our planet with unnecessary co2 and increased prices for others?

shawnz 6y ago

While you may not agree with the ecological trade-offs, you would be arguing against reality to say that people aren't using Bitcoin to solve real issues right now.