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"Better" is certainly a point of view here. Having to tell the government all of your whereabouts when you already live on an Island with no spreading is an ov

by bbarn 6y ago

"Better" is certainly a point of view here. Having to tell the government all of your whereabouts when you already live on an Island with no spreading is an overreach, IMO.

Ensorceled 6y ago
The 21,000 dead here in Canada would like to argue that it is much, much better but, well, they can't. I literally can not believe you are arguing it's not better.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Believe it or not but not everybody believes that human rights like privacy are always optional when lives are at stake. Ever heard of the phrase "the end doesn't justify the means"?
  - adriancr 6y ago
    exactly, how are you going to visit the mistress(es) if government tracks everything and eventually will be leaked? (a bit of sarcasm but the point stands, privacy shouldn't be optional)
  - emayljames 6y ago
    What about the people on deaths doors human rights. I'd say they take precedence over being upset on sharing you location.
    - leesalminen 6y ago
      https://fallacyinlogic.com/the-appeal-to-emotion-fallacy-with-examples/amp/ https://fallacyinlogic.com/the-appeal-to-emotion-fallacy-wit...
2muchcoffeeman 6y ago
We have a similar system is AU. It’s not really enforced all that well. But most people cooperate and life is generally back to normal. You also only need to do it in enclosed areas like shops. Mask wearing is still mandatory on public transport. Unfortunately very low cases doesn’t mean the virus is gone. Occasionally there is a case and if you want to clamp that down as fast as possible, you need contact tracing. Which means we need to know where you are. For most people, no extra information is being leaked. Facebook and google already know where they are and they are far more malicious than the AU or NZ government. The tin foil hatters like you can take extra measures I’m sure. The US has over 25million cases and over 400k dead. That’s literally the entire population of Australia infected. So I’d argue that NZ and AU are objectively better and we shouldn’t worry about “overreach” just yet.
bjarneh 6y ago
Well, when the users already give the government access to their location 24/7 with that app, at least they include a barcode/QR scanner. But privacy is clearly one of the victims of this pandemic. At least some countries are now opening up the source-code of the front and back-end of their apps. They had to do that here in Norway (they had to replace the whole app actually) when the original closed source version was demonstrated to contain harmful features...
tialaramex 6y ago
The New Zealand government doesn't learn "all your whereabouts" by default. The app is storing locally what it has learned about places you visited by scanning QR codes, and comparing that to information it is being sent over the Network (by the government) to discern if you went anywhere that the government says warrants special action - if so you get notified. For most Kiwis this means a bunch of QR code data is stored on their phone and, months or years from now when the emergency is over (depending on how incompetent other countries are) that data is deleted. There is no NZ department of health MySQL database full of geo data of every New Zealand citizen and never will be. If you're a case (remembering that New Zealand has elimination, so rather than cases being millions of people as in the US for example, they're very rare) then you can choose to help the contact tracers by giving them your data and in that case they do get all the data because you gave it to them. Because New Zealand has elimination contact tracing is something done by a handful of experts. I would guess that like most countries New Zealand's contact tracing experts worked previously with sexually transmitted infections - so they already understand the sensitivity of this work. COVID-19 is actually less awkward, because at least you don't have to admit to fucking somebody you claim you're not sexually attracted to, just that you were in the same room as them for a period of time. But of course none of what I wrote above matters much because those are merely facts, and for so many Americans mere facts can't oppose a Truth they have become certain of despite all evidence to the contrary. Not that Mother Nature gives a damn whether you believe her.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  I'm glad NZ chose to develop the app the right way, but I certainly wouldn't expect any American government to do that.

by bbarn 6y ago

"Better" is certainly a point of view here. Having to tell the government all of your whereabouts when you already live on an Island with no spreading is an overreach, IMO.

Ensorceled 6y ago

The 21,000 dead here in Canada would like to argue that it is much, much better but, well, they can't. I literally can not believe you are arguing it's not better.

logicchains 6y ago
Believe it or not but not everybody believes that human rights like privacy are always optional when lives are at stake. Ever heard of the phrase "the end doesn't justify the means"?
- adriancr 6y ago
  exactly, how are you going to visit the mistress(es) if government tracks everything and eventually will be leaked? (a bit of sarcasm but the point stands, privacy shouldn't be optional)
- emayljames 6y ago
  What about the people on deaths doors human rights. I'd say they take precedence over being upset on sharing you location.
  - leesalminen 6y ago
    https://fallacyinlogic.com/the-appeal-to-emotion-fallacy-with-examples/amp/ https://fallacyinlogic.com/the-appeal-to-emotion-fallacy-wit...

2muchcoffeeman 6y ago

We have a similar system is AU. It’s not really enforced all that well. But most people cooperate and life is generally back to normal. You also only need to do it in enclosed areas like shops. Mask wearing is still mandatory on public transport. Unfortunately very low cases doesn’t mean the virus is gone. Occasionally there is a case and if you want to clamp that down as fast as possible, you need contact tracing. Which means we need to know where you are. For most people, no extra information is being leaked. Facebook and google already know where they are and they are far more malicious than the AU or NZ government. The tin foil hatters like you can take extra measures I’m sure. The US has over 25million cases and over 400k dead. That’s literally the entire population of Australia infected. So I’d argue that NZ and AU are objectively better and we shouldn’t worry about “overreach” just yet.

bjarneh 6y ago

Well, when the users already give the government access to their location 24/7 with that app, at least they include a barcode/QR scanner. But privacy is clearly one of the victims of this pandemic. At least some countries are now opening up the source-code of the front and back-end of their apps. They had to do that here in Norway (they had to replace the whole app actually) when the original closed source version was demonstrated to contain harmful features...

tialaramex 6y ago

The New Zealand government doesn't learn "all your whereabouts" by default. The app is storing locally what it has learned about places you visited by scanning QR codes, and comparing that to information it is being sent over the Network (by the government) to discern if you went anywhere that the government says warrants special action - if so you get notified. For most Kiwis this means a bunch of QR code data is stored on their phone and, months or years from now when the emergency is over (depending on how incompetent other countries are) that data is deleted. There is no NZ department of health MySQL database full of geo data of every New Zealand citizen and never will be. If you're a case (remembering that New Zealand has elimination, so rather than cases being millions of people as in the US for example, they're very rare) then you can choose to help the contact tracers by giving them your data and in that case they do get all the data because you gave it to them. Because New Zealand has elimination contact tracing is something done by a handful of experts. I would guess that like most countries New Zealand's contact tracing experts worked previously with sexually transmitted infections - so they already understand the sensitivity of this work. COVID-19 is actually less awkward, because at least you don't have to admit to fucking somebody you claim you're not sexually attracted to, just that you were in the same room as them for a period of time. But of course none of what I wrote above matters much because those are merely facts, and for so many Americans mere facts can't oppose a Truth they have become certain of despite all evidence to the contrary. Not that Mother Nature gives a damn whether you believe her.

jessaustin 6y ago
I'm glad NZ chose to develop the app the right way, but I certainly wouldn't expect any American government to do that.