5 ms·

Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

91 points by asplake 6y ago

ammo1662 6y ago
> There is a "very credible case" that the Chinese government is carrying out the crime of genocide against the Uighur people, according to a formal legal opinion newly published in the UK. So where is this source?
junippor 6y ago
Last time I posted on HN on this subject, it was removed for being political. Genocide is "political", according to HN moderators.
dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
It will be flagged into oblivion by Chinese accounts soon.
- powerapple 6y ago
  Saved you by doing it to prove you are not lying.. you are welcome
- rapsey 6y ago
  Admins don't particularly like political threads. For good reason.
  - jamesroyce 6y ago
    Genocide is political?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ngc248 6y ago
I am a china hater, but this thing smells just like the "WMDs in Iraq". Been seeing lotsa pieces recently on the net about the Uighur/china issue, looks like they are building a case just like the WMDs
- Koiwai 6y ago
  Yeah, I'm Chinese and I hate my government, but please do it for the right reason.
- blablabla123 6y ago
  There exists quite dense information about this on credible news sources, YouTube, Reddit. (WMDs in Iraq was found to be a hoax just by googling.) Also I've once met backpackers who got imprisoned for practically no reason in exactly that area. Apart from the Xinjiang issue, the Chinese government has also a quite well-documented recent history of putting individuals into reeducation centers. I don't think this is about hating China anyway but taking on a critical stand towards Chinese (government) policy which is well compatible with an admiration for Chinese culture, if that makes any sense...
  - ngc248 6y ago
    but is there really genocide (killing populations on a large scale) happening?
    - hkmaxpro 6y ago
      Yes, genocide is happening. From the Genocide Convention of 1948: [0] > Article II > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Both (d) [1][2] and (e) [3][4] happen to Uighurs in Xinjiang. [0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-... [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-genocidal-sterilization-xinjiang/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-... [2] https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c [3] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-uighur-muslim-children/569062/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch... [4] https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/15/china-xinjiang-children-separated-families https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/15/china-xinjiang-children-...
nsajko 6y ago
> The opinion is significant because it beats a legal path that British judges would follow if Parliament were to agree new legislation allowing the High Court to decide on matters of genocide. Why would an honest judge let themselves be guided by a mere counsel's opinion? Regarding how the allegations of "genocide" (in contrast to the wider crimes against humanity, I guess) are explained, I think the opinion diminishes the massacres of e.g. the Jews and the Armenians; although I'm pretty sure that it's not a novel use of the word in the opinion.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  It’s worth mentioning that the definition of genocide does not require an attempt to kill off every member of the group, like the Holocaust and Armenian genocide. The 1948 UN convention on genocide included “causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to ‘bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part’, preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group.” Obviously planned mass death of a group is genocide, but that’s not the only defined requirement. The coiner of the term genocide also included this in their description of it: > the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
xyzzy123 6y ago
It is interesting to look at the director of the UHRP and notice the close association with Radio Liberty and the U.S. government. The UHRP, by the way, is based in Washington D.C. That is the organisation that paid for the Q.C's legal opinion and did the public relations legwork for the article. There is a distinct aura of propaganda adjacent to this piece. The legal opinion may nonetheless be valid, and for the record I believe it's entirely possible the treatment of Uighurs might qualify as genocide. I still think it is useful to consider sources when reading articles like this.
- Koiwai 6y ago
  And, just like that, you're downvoted. For the record, I upvoted.
Havoc 6y ago
Credibility isn’t the issue. What do you do about it though?
- boublepop 6y ago
  Credibility is always an issue. You can find a thousand people willing to support allegations that Joe Biden committed fraud and stole the American presidential election to the point where they are willing to commit armed assault on the capital. The reason such allegations are not taken serious outside of American right wing extremists is because there isn’t any credible claims. If there were credible claims of election fraud other countries would have picked up the discussions and might have taken actions to support democracy in America. But there weren’t. In this case it’s extremely important to distinguish between credible claims of genocide and the many who would without any basis in evidence be ready to support claims of genocide simply because they’ve seen pictures of mistreated Uighur and feel bad about them. You can’t have international political consequences be based on “I saw pictures on Facebook I don’t like, so China needs to be punished!” As such I think it’s extremely important when people routed in facts and evidence bring forwards a credible case for what China is doing being classified as genocide.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > In this case it’s extremely important to distinguish between credible claims of genocide and the many who would without any basis in evidence be ready to support claims of genocide simply because they’ve seen pictures of mistreated Uighur and feel bad about them. You can’t have international political consequences be based on “I saw pictures on Facebook I don’t like, so China needs to be punished!” > As such I think it’s extremely important when people routed in facts and evidence bring forwards a credible case for what China is doing being classified as genocide. Actually, IIRC, the question here isn't so much about what's happening to the Uighurs, but what the definition of genocide is. Basically: does genocide require physical extermination or not? There are different views on that.
- imranq 6y ago
  You can email your congressman/woman if you’re in the US Otherwise, we can try to see the evidence for ourselves, via articles and satellite imagery and try to make more sense of the situation.

91 points by asplake 6y ago

> There is a "very credible case" that the Chinese government is carrying out the crime of genocide against the Uighur people, according to a formal legal opinion newly published in the UK. So where is this source?

junippor 6y ago

Last time I posted on HN on this subject, it was removed for being political. Genocide is "political", according to HN moderators.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago

It will be flagged into oblivion by Chinese accounts soon.

powerapple 6y ago
Saved you by doing it to prove you are not lying.. you are welcome
rapsey 6y ago
Admins don't particularly like political threads. For good reason.
- jamesroyce 6y ago
  Genocide is political?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ngc248 6y ago

I am a china hater, but this thing smells just like the "WMDs in Iraq". Been seeing lotsa pieces recently on the net about the Uighur/china issue, looks like they are building a case just like the WMDs

Koiwai 6y ago
Yeah, I'm Chinese and I hate my government, but please do it for the right reason.
blablabla123 6y ago
There exists quite dense information about this on credible news sources, YouTube, Reddit. (WMDs in Iraq was found to be a hoax just by googling.) Also I've once met backpackers who got imprisoned for practically no reason in exactly that area. Apart from the Xinjiang issue, the Chinese government has also a quite well-documented recent history of putting individuals into reeducation centers. I don't think this is about hating China anyway but taking on a critical stand towards Chinese (government) policy which is well compatible with an admiration for Chinese culture, if that makes any sense...
- ngc248 6y ago
  but is there really genocide (killing populations on a large scale) happening?
  - hkmaxpro 6y ago
    Yes, genocide is happening. From the Genocide Convention of 1948: [0] > Article II > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Both (d) [1][2] and (e) [3][4] happen to Uighurs in Xinjiang. [0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-... [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-genocidal-sterilization-xinjiang/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/china-documents-uighur-... [2] https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c [3] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-uighur-muslim-children/569062/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch... [4] https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/15/china-xinjiang-children-separated-families https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/15/china-xinjiang-children-...

nsajko 6y ago

> The opinion is significant because it beats a legal path that British judges would follow if Parliament were to agree new legislation allowing the High Court to decide on matters of genocide. Why would an honest judge let themselves be guided by a mere counsel's opinion? Regarding how the allegations of "genocide" (in contrast to the wider crimes against humanity, I guess) are explained, I think the opinion diminishes the massacres of e.g. the Jews and the Armenians; although I'm pretty sure that it's not a novel use of the word in the opinion.

ashtonkem 6y ago
It’s worth mentioning that the definition of genocide does not require an attempt to kill off every member of the group, like the Holocaust and Armenian genocide. The 1948 UN convention on genocide included “causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to ‘bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part’, preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group.” Obviously planned mass death of a group is genocide, but that’s not the only defined requirement. The coiner of the term genocide also included this in their description of it: > the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.

xyzzy123 6y ago

It is interesting to look at the director of the UHRP and notice the close association with Radio Liberty and the U.S. government. The UHRP, by the way, is based in Washington D.C. That is the organisation that paid for the Q.C's legal opinion and did the public relations legwork for the article. There is a distinct aura of propaganda adjacent to this piece. The legal opinion may nonetheless be valid, and for the record I believe it's entirely possible the treatment of Uighurs might qualify as genocide. I still think it is useful to consider sources when reading articles like this.

Koiwai 6y ago
And, just like that, you're downvoted. For the record, I upvoted.

Havoc 6y ago

Credibility isn’t the issue. What do you do about it though?

boublepop 6y ago
Credibility is always an issue. You can find a thousand people willing to support allegations that Joe Biden committed fraud and stole the American presidential election to the point where they are willing to commit armed assault on the capital. The reason such allegations are not taken serious outside of American right wing extremists is because there isn’t any credible claims. If there were credible claims of election fraud other countries would have picked up the discussions and might have taken actions to support democracy in America. But there weren’t. In this case it’s extremely important to distinguish between credible claims of genocide and the many who would without any basis in evidence be ready to support claims of genocide simply because they’ve seen pictures of mistreated Uighur and feel bad about them. You can’t have international political consequences be based on “I saw pictures on Facebook I don’t like, so China needs to be punished!” As such I think it’s extremely important when people routed in facts and evidence bring forwards a credible case for what China is doing being classified as genocide.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > In this case it’s extremely important to distinguish between credible claims of genocide and the many who would without any basis in evidence be ready to support claims of genocide simply because they’ve seen pictures of mistreated Uighur and feel bad about them. You can’t have international political consequences be based on “I saw pictures on Facebook I don’t like, so China needs to be punished!” > As such I think it’s extremely important when people routed in facts and evidence bring forwards a credible case for what China is doing being classified as genocide. Actually, IIRC, the question here isn't so much about what's happening to the Uighurs, but what the definition of genocide is. Basically: does genocide require physical extermination or not? There are different views on that.
imranq 6y ago
You can email your congressman/woman if you’re in the US Otherwise, we can try to see the evidence for ourselves, via articles and satellite imagery and try to make more sense of the situation.