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Good summary, thanks for adding it. One does feel obliged to mention one's "race", as it seems like it's the first thing that someone will assume (wrongly or no

Good summary, thanks for adding it. One does feel obliged to mention one's "race", as it seems like it's the first thing that someone will assume (wrongly or not) in any conversation in SA. And saying that one shouldn't mention some amount of background really is along the lines of "all lives matter". So, anyway, agreed with your arguments and thanks for the additional ones I didn't know about. It's important for all South Africans to understand the difference between background and your own future. Many other countries do have this kind of unity, but at historical price of a lot of wars. In SA we essentially avoided war at the cost of multiple identities, and this is something we should draw on for the better.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
South Africa is unique in the sense that there is a strong problem of racism and violence by black people against white people. This is something very hard to understand and accept in the current political climate of the USA, but what it really shows is that all people are basically the same and racism has no color.
- nsomaru 6y ago
  Actually, crime disproportionately affects the poor in South Africa and the poor are disproportionately black. The “real” crime rate for middle and upper classes is far lower than reported numbers suggest.
- toyg 6y ago
  From what I heard, in SA there is also black-on-black racism towards immigration from poorer African countries.
  - iguy 6y ago
    A super-interesting book this is Jonny Steinberg "A Man of Good Hope". The man in question is a Somali who, when he's being interviewed, does various jobs in the poorer parts of South Africa. And has interesting perspectives on things, and how they look "from below" as it were, as opposed to the more common outsider's impressions from people visiting from richer countries.
- tempytampy 6y ago
  This is not a constructive line of argument.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    Why? The current mainstream narrative bothers me in several ways. First, you can often hear that racism against white people is not racism. Even the term "reverse-racism" was invented for that purpose! Second, Americans have a unique history and relationship between black and white populations, and they try to project the same relationship on other nations (there was a famous article by a black Brit who essentionally said, please don't involve black people in other countries into this). I would hope HN is one of the few places where we can talk about sensitive issues like these in a civilized way, without microaggressions and trying to look at it objectively. I don't mind downvotes although I prefer rational arguments.
- zingar 6y ago
  It depends on whether you understand racism as a systemic phenomenon that disenfranchises people, or as one group of people actively disliking another. Your statement rests on the latter understanding, but that's inadequate for South Africa. There has not been centuries of injustice meted out to white people in addition to name calling. Even unintentional prejudice now from white people ends up affecting black people in South Africa far worse than hatred that just stops at words.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    The word racism can mean both. It only demonstrates that "racism" as a word, and a tool for communication, is inadequate for nuance. > There has not been centuries of injustice meted out to white people in addition to name calling Does that mean there was no injustice during medieval times, or before?
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  > South Africa is unique in the sense that there is a strong problem of racism and violence by black people against white people This is really disturbing nonsense, it's little more than a projection of your own racist ideals. Criminals terrorize everyone, regardless of race. If you say white people are disproportionately targeted - please advise with links to meaningful, objective publicly available data so we can discuss. The dangerous myth of farm murders To any thinking person, doesn't that sound strange? A ridiculously small percentage of white south africans are farmers, why would criminals not bother with wealthy white people in Sandton, Umhlanga and Clifton, not bother upper, lower and middle class white people in the cities and suburbia (the people I work with) and go straight - with racist malice - to a narrow subset of white people who are farmers of all people? Why is there news of this being racially motivated? Is there evidence of this being racially motivated thing rather than criminal motivation? If anyone has objective answers/links to discourse that transcend the black people bad - white people good narrative, I'll be happy to review.
  - pepperonipizza 6y ago
    The third largest party in SA, the EFF, uses racism frequently. Its rising popularity is a disturbing proof that racism in SA is probably growing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters >Since its establishment the EFF has made a number of controversial racially or ethnically based statements about a number of South African minority groups. The EFF is widely criticised for inciting and perpetuating racism.[130][98][131] The EFF is known for staging controversial public protests aimed at increasing political support by driving race division and intolerance. Party practices have been defined as "fascist". [132][133][134][135][136][137][138] This approach has proved persuasive to a largely disenfranchised young black youth in South Africa who are mired by poverty, unemployment and inequality, where all minority groups, in particular whites, are singled out by party propaganda as the sole benefactors and drivers of inequality. Edit:form
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    > If anyone has objective answers/links to discourse There is a whole section on WP on this issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_Africa#Racism_against_white_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_Africa#Racism_... By the way, neither ad hominem attacks nor straw man arguments (farm murders) are useful - not only they bring nothing constructive, but encourage degragation of the discourse into emotional name-calling. I'm very well aware of the history of SA and the suffering of black people. However, I don't think it justifies the attacks some white people experience in SA from some black people.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago

South Africa is unique in the sense that there is a strong problem of racism and violence by black people against white people. This is something very hard to understand and accept in the current political climate of the USA, but what it really shows is that all people are basically the same and racism has no color.

nsomaru 6y ago
Actually, crime disproportionately affects the poor in South Africa and the poor are disproportionately black. The “real” crime rate for middle and upper classes is far lower than reported numbers suggest.
toyg 6y ago
From what I heard, in SA there is also black-on-black racism towards immigration from poorer African countries.
- iguy 6y ago
  A super-interesting book this is Jonny Steinberg "A Man of Good Hope". The man in question is a Somali who, when he's being interviewed, does various jobs in the poorer parts of South Africa. And has interesting perspectives on things, and how they look "from below" as it were, as opposed to the more common outsider's impressions from people visiting from richer countries.
tempytampy 6y ago
This is not a constructive line of argument.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  Why? The current mainstream narrative bothers me in several ways. First, you can often hear that racism against white people is not racism. Even the term "reverse-racism" was invented for that purpose! Second, Americans have a unique history and relationship between black and white populations, and they try to project the same relationship on other nations (there was a famous article by a black Brit who essentionally said, please don't involve black people in other countries into this). I would hope HN is one of the few places where we can talk about sensitive issues like these in a civilized way, without microaggressions and trying to look at it objectively. I don't mind downvotes although I prefer rational arguments.
zingar 6y ago
It depends on whether you understand racism as a systemic phenomenon that disenfranchises people, or as one group of people actively disliking another. Your statement rests on the latter understanding, but that's inadequate for South Africa. There has not been centuries of injustice meted out to white people in addition to name calling. Even unintentional prejudice now from white people ends up affecting black people in South Africa far worse than hatred that just stops at words.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  The word racism can mean both. It only demonstrates that "racism" as a word, and a tool for communication, is inadequate for nuance. > There has not been centuries of injustice meted out to white people in addition to name calling Does that mean there was no injustice during medieval times, or before?
vagrantJin 6y ago
> South Africa is unique in the sense that there is a strong problem of racism and violence by black people against white people This is really disturbing nonsense, it's little more than a projection of your own racist ideals. Criminals terrorize everyone, regardless of race. If you say white people are disproportionately targeted - please advise with links to meaningful, objective publicly available data so we can discuss. The dangerous myth of farm murders To any thinking person, doesn't that sound strange? A ridiculously small percentage of white south africans are farmers, why would criminals not bother with wealthy white people in Sandton, Umhlanga and Clifton, not bother upper, lower and middle class white people in the cities and suburbia (the people I work with) and go straight - with racist malice - to a narrow subset of white people who are farmers of all people? Why is there news of this being racially motivated? Is there evidence of this being racially motivated thing rather than criminal motivation? If anyone has objective answers/links to discourse that transcend the black people bad - white people good narrative, I'll be happy to review.
- pepperonipizza 6y ago
  The third largest party in SA, the EFF, uses racism frequently. Its rising popularity is a disturbing proof that racism in SA is probably growing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters >Since its establishment the EFF has made a number of controversial racially or ethnically based statements about a number of South African minority groups. The EFF is widely criticised for inciting and perpetuating racism.[130][98][131] The EFF is known for staging controversial public protests aimed at increasing political support by driving race division and intolerance. Party practices have been defined as "fascist". [132][133][134][135][136][137][138] This approach has proved persuasive to a largely disenfranchised young black youth in South Africa who are mired by poverty, unemployment and inequality, where all minority groups, in particular whites, are singled out by party propaganda as the sole benefactors and drivers of inequality. Edit:form
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  > If anyone has objective answers/links to discourse There is a whole section on WP on this issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_Africa#Racism_against_white_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_Africa#Racism_... By the way, neither ad hominem attacks nor straw man arguments (farm murders) are useful - not only they bring nothing constructive, but encourage degragation of the discourse into emotional name-calling. I'm very well aware of the history of SA and the suffering of black people. However, I don't think it justifies the attacks some white people experience in SA from some black people.