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I also found the article fascinating for the insights the author shows about her own thoughts and motivations. When I started working out at a gym, when I was

I also found the article fascinating for the insights the author shows about her own thoughts and motivations. When I started working out at a gym, when I was in my early fifties, I barely knew that bodybuilding existed. But the gym I happened to join in Tokyo turned out to be popular with amateur bodybuilders, and I exercised near them most evenings for more than ten years. I became acquainted with quite a few of them, including some of the top bodybuilders in Japan, and made friends with several, but I never really understood what drove them. Although most of them had full-time jobs, they worked out nearly every evening for a couple of hours, and when the summer competition season approached they would drastically restrict their diets and start spending money on skincare and tanning. It looked to me like self-torture, but many of them continued this year after year. In my job, in foreign-language education, I think a lot about what motivates some adults to keep studying long and hard enough to become proficient in a foreign language, as relatively few actually succeed. I tried to get some insights about motivation from watching and talking to the bodybuilders, but I didn’t really learn much. This article helped.

Aerroon 6y ago
>In my job, in foreign-language education, I think a lot about what motivates some adults to keep studying long and hard enough to become proficient in a foreign language, as relatively few actually succeed. I'm not sure I would compare something like bodybuilding with foreign languages. At some point you become proficient enough in a language that you can simply consume movies, TV shows, books, news etc that the language learning becomes mostly effortless. Becoming really proficient at a language requires someone to immerse themselves in it (to use it for a purpose without easy fallbacks). The internet has been amazing for learning English. I don't know anyone that became proficient at a language by studying it. It's always been through use. The studying just creates a base that allows a person to start using the language. Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Language learning is much more flexible in this. You might forget what you learned, but the next time you try to learn the same thing it's much easier.
- Lopiolis 6y ago
  > Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Well, maintaining your current level of strength is far easier to do than maintaining continuous progress (especially at more advanced stages, which you have to do a lot of fuckery around programming/scheduling in order to realize any progress at all). You just can't do nothing, but the same goes for languages. If you don't use a language at all, your proficiency atrophies over time as well. It's just not something people really think about. If you were to reach a level of strength you were happy with, you could just figure out a maintenance program and focus your physical energy on other pursuits, extreme sports, slacklining, bouldering, hiking, whatever.
  - Aerroon 6y ago
    >If you don't use a language at all, your proficiency atrophies over time as well. I don't think it's quite comparable. I was fluent in German more than a decade ago. I've not really used it since. It's difficult for me to speak or write in it, because I simply can't think of the words - I'll remember them in English instead. However, if I listen to German or read German text then I have no trouble understanding it. This same thing did not happen with exercise for me. The strength I once had is gone.
    - kridsdale1 6y ago
      Fortunately for you, regaining a strength level that one had in the past is vastly lower effort than what was required to get to that level in the first place. There are many fascinating cellular and molecular causes for the macro-phenomenon that we call "muscle memory" but it is a real thing. TLDR, your muscles, unlike most tissues, have more than one nucleus per cell. Your "meat", which are protein fibers, can be atrophied through catabolism during diet or dis-use, and this is a form of protein recycling. But the multiplication of nuclei which occurred during your original training does not revert. So a formerly strong person who let it go is sitting around with a high nuclei/cell ratio, and low muscle tissue. If he resumes his training and calorie surplus, his nuclei will act like parallel processors outputting the commands to manufacture new muscle fiber much faster.
asiachick 6y ago
RE language acquisition, I often wonder how much is circumstance. I have an engineer friend who on the one hand is making excuses but he points out his job doesn't really require him to talk to anyone, further, his programming job is almost entirely in English, looking up API docs or language docs in English, writing code while thinking in English, further he's somewhat introverted. So, his language skills are not so great for the amount of time he's lived abroad. Conversely his sees socialite colleagues doing jobs that require interaction doing much better. My point is, some adults don't need so much intrinsic motivation. Their situation effectively carries them or at least is a strong helpful push.
- viceroyalbean 6y ago
  You are definitely correct, but you need to factor in the actions that puts someone in a place to get that environmental effect. If your friend had motivation to learn the language they would presumably seek out ways to practice it (e.g engaging more with their colleagues or actively seeking documentation in the foreign language). One directly practical example, since I'm also an engineer living in a foreign country: a lot of the times when I first interact with someone they will ask me if I prefer to speak in English or in their language, and I will always take the opportunity to speak their language to get the practice in. Since this thread is about the similarity between learning languages and bodybuilding, I guess you could make the comparison between someone working a job that leads to natural exercise (e.g construction) and someone who works a more sedentary job but seeks out exercise on their own.
OminousWeapons 6y ago
I'm not a body builder, but I was a competitive powerlifter for awhile and still am a serious lifter now. In my experience, serious lifters of either gender (including myself) tend to have trauma from the past that got them into it and helped the hobby stick. Typically they were either fat, underweight, short, or weak; they felt looked down on; or some combination of these things, and they were angry about it. Alternatively, they felt powerless for some reason and they felt that lifting empowered them and gave them control. As George Leeman (an accomplished powerlifter) once said: "to lift these kinds of weights is not a happy thing...you do not try and pick up 800 lbs and fucking look like you're going to fucking kill somebody before you do it because everything is fucking great".
- jeffreygoesto 6y ago
  Reminds me of the brother in "Leolo" [0]. Super dense movie right on the verge between tragic and funny. [0] https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0104782/mediaviewer/rm2696479744/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0104782/mediaviewer/rm2696479744/

Aerroon 6y ago

>In my job, in foreign-language education, I think a lot about what motivates some adults to keep studying long and hard enough to become proficient in a foreign language, as relatively few actually succeed. I'm not sure I would compare something like bodybuilding with foreign languages. At some point you become proficient enough in a language that you can simply consume movies, TV shows, books, news etc that the language learning becomes mostly effortless. Becoming really proficient at a language requires someone to immerse themselves in it (to use it for a purpose without easy fallbacks). The internet has been amazing for learning English. I don't know anyone that became proficient at a language by studying it. It's always been through use. The studying just creates a base that allows a person to start using the language. Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Language learning is much more flexible in this. You might forget what you learned, but the next time you try to learn the same thing it's much easier.

Lopiolis 6y ago
> Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Well, maintaining your current level of strength is far easier to do than maintaining continuous progress (especially at more advanced stages, which you have to do a lot of fuckery around programming/scheduling in order to realize any progress at all). You just can't do nothing, but the same goes for languages. If you don't use a language at all, your proficiency atrophies over time as well. It's just not something people really think about. If you were to reach a level of strength you were happy with, you could just figure out a maintenance program and focus your physical energy on other pursuits, extreme sports, slacklining, bouldering, hiking, whatever.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  >If you don't use a language at all, your proficiency atrophies over time as well. I don't think it's quite comparable. I was fluent in German more than a decade ago. I've not really used it since. It's difficult for me to speak or write in it, because I simply can't think of the words - I'll remember them in English instead. However, if I listen to German or read German text then I have no trouble understanding it. This same thing did not happen with exercise for me. The strength I once had is gone.
  - kridsdale1 6y ago
    Fortunately for you, regaining a strength level that one had in the past is vastly lower effort than what was required to get to that level in the first place. There are many fascinating cellular and molecular causes for the macro-phenomenon that we call "muscle memory" but it is a real thing. TLDR, your muscles, unlike most tissues, have more than one nucleus per cell. Your "meat", which are protein fibers, can be atrophied through catabolism during diet or dis-use, and this is a form of protein recycling. But the multiplication of nuclei which occurred during your original training does not revert. So a formerly strong person who let it go is sitting around with a high nuclei/cell ratio, and low muscle tissue. If he resumes his training and calorie surplus, his nuclei will act like parallel processors outputting the commands to manufacture new muscle fiber much faster.

asiachick 6y ago

RE language acquisition, I often wonder how much is circumstance. I have an engineer friend who on the one hand is making excuses but he points out his job doesn't really require him to talk to anyone, further, his programming job is almost entirely in English, looking up API docs or language docs in English, writing code while thinking in English, further he's somewhat introverted. So, his language skills are not so great for the amount of time he's lived abroad. Conversely his sees socialite colleagues doing jobs that require interaction doing much better. My point is, some adults don't need so much intrinsic motivation. Their situation effectively carries them or at least is a strong helpful push.

viceroyalbean 6y ago
You are definitely correct, but you need to factor in the actions that puts someone in a place to get that environmental effect. If your friend had motivation to learn the language they would presumably seek out ways to practice it (e.g engaging more with their colleagues or actively seeking documentation in the foreign language). One directly practical example, since I'm also an engineer living in a foreign country: a lot of the times when I first interact with someone they will ask me if I prefer to speak in English or in their language, and I will always take the opportunity to speak their language to get the practice in. Since this thread is about the similarity between learning languages and bodybuilding, I guess you could make the comparison between someone working a job that leads to natural exercise (e.g construction) and someone who works a more sedentary job but seeks out exercise on their own.

OminousWeapons 6y ago

I'm not a body builder, but I was a competitive powerlifter for awhile and still am a serious lifter now. In my experience, serious lifters of either gender (including myself) tend to have trauma from the past that got them into it and helped the hobby stick. Typically they were either fat, underweight, short, or weak; they felt looked down on; or some combination of these things, and they were angry about it. Alternatively, they felt powerless for some reason and they felt that lifting empowered them and gave them control. As George Leeman (an accomplished powerlifter) once said: "to lift these kinds of weights is not a happy thing...you do not try and pick up 800 lbs and fucking look like you're going to fucking kill somebody before you do it because everything is fucking great".

jeffreygoesto 6y ago
Reminds me of the brother in "Leolo" [0]. Super dense movie right on the verge between tragic and funny. [0] https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0104782/mediaviewer/rm2696479744/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0104782/mediaviewer/rm2696479744/