5 ms·

Forgive (heh) me, but I’m mostly inclined to view this post as a stalking horse for the current american republican talking points about “division” and a need f

Forgive (heh) me, but I’m mostly inclined to view this post as a stalking horse for the current american republican talking points about “division” and a need for “healing” after their rhetoric lead to an insurrection and the first breach of the Rotunda since 1811. To which perhaps Jeremiah 6 is germane as a reply in kind, since the post is inclined towards scripture anyway: 13 From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit. 14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace. 15 Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush.

clarkevans 6y ago
Critically, forgiveness follows repentance.
- hprotagonist 6y ago
  and cannot be demanded by the offender. We can reach easily to Isaiah to see what repentance looks like, too: 6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? 7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter— when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? 8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear;
  - dsrnewell 6y ago
    Right. But it can be demanded by the norms of society as a whole.
    - hprotagonist 6y ago
      Sure. I see a lot of burnt offerings from people with blood on their hands. I don’t see very much learning to do right or defending the orphans. Worth noting at the political level that people who do start making positive amends do actually get praised for it: here’s the extremely left NY Mag praising mitt romney: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02/mitt-romney-child-allowance-covid-stimulus.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02/mitt-romney-child-al... Nobody cares about hollow prattling. (If you are of the religious bent: God specifically doesn't care at all about mouthing off but doing nothing.) Trumpist enablers will be forgiven, more or less, round about the time they take positive steps towards reuniting babies with their parents and taking them out of cages. Take that cross and walk with it humbly and people will come around.
- dsrnewell 6y ago
  Right. At the societal level, forgiveness follows contrition and the rituals of repentance. But there are no such rituals that can lead to forgiveness now. That is the problem. Even when people seek forgiveness, are sincere, and do what they can, they are still not forgiven. On a personal level, we need to forgive everyone, for our own sakes.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
uyuyututu474 6y ago
> the first breach of the Rotunda since 1811 People keep repeating this but it's false: Armed Black Panthers occupied the Capitol on May 2th, 1967. See photo here: https://capitolweekly.net/black-panthers-armed-capitol/ https://capitolweekly.net/black-panthers-armed-capitol/
- klyrs 6y ago
  That was the capitol building of California. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1967#May_2,_1967_(Tuesday) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1967#May_2,_1967_(Tuesday)
dsrnewell 6y ago
Re: “this post as a stalking horse...” see: https://realclearconservatism.com/2021/01/18/in-defense-of-all-we-hold-dear/ https://realclearconservatism.com/2021/01/18/in-defense-of-a... The Republican Party is no longer truly conservative, but populist and/or right-libertarian. Forgiveness is needed by all sides and is also needed well beyond politics.
wombatmobile 6y ago
> I’m mostly inclined to view this post as a stalking horse for the current american republican talking points It reads like a stalking horse, starting with small step motherhood statements... "Forgiveness is one of the most, if not the most, essential virtue for any civilized society." Setting the bar so low, no reasonable person could object... "Professionals who years earlier used an inappropriate slur are fired, despite sincere apologies." Then begins the ascent towards overreach... "Because of a lack of forgiveness, people are not allowed to mature, they are not allowed to change." Then it gets ambitious and pointed... "Even those guilty of criminal behavior need the forgiveness of both society and the individuals harmed by the crime." Before the grand finale triple reverse twist mafioso dismount: "Without forgiveness, America will continue to devolve into Thomas Hobbes’ dystopian vision of the pre-civilized, natural state of life for man as, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”"
quasirandom 6y ago
Then hear it from someone you are less likely to distrust. [1] [1] https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/12/martha-minow-on-the-power-of-forgiveness/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/12/martha-minow-...
- hprotagonist 6y ago
  I’ll also take william barber at his word. I think the original post is a stalking horse because it makes a claim i find to be true and unobjectionable, but i suspect the group making the claim is doing so duplicitously to avoid proper responsibility.
  - hprotagonist 6y ago
    c.f. https://time.com/5931343/william-barber-inaugural-prayer-service-sermon/ https://time.com/5931343/william-barber-inaugural-prayer-ser...
- coolgeek 6y ago
  Martha Minow signed the letter calling Trump's First Amendment (wrt insurrection liability) defense frivolous. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/us/trump-defense-first-amendment.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/us/trump-defense-first-am... As such, I'd expect her views here to be quite a bit more nuanced than what she wrote two years ago about the legal system in general (as a whole).
pjc50 6y ago
I think it's a bit broader than that, hence the mention of pronoun; but the problem is the same. Forgiving the unrepentant may be Christian but it puts you in the "cooperate" side of a repeated game of Prisoner's Dilemma where they can just "defect" against you again. There has to be repentance first. A good apology clearly acknowledges the error, agrees that they were in the wrong, and includes a (implied or explicit) commitment to not do it again, as well as (where applicable) making good any real damage done. Whereas up until now the strategy seems to have been to retaliate to being called out on being wrong by going even further, louder, and deeper into wrongness.

clarkevans 6y ago

Critically, forgiveness follows repentance.

hprotagonist 6y ago
and cannot be demanded by the offender. We can reach easily to Isaiah to see what repentance looks like, too: 6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? 7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter— when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? 8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear;
- dsrnewell 6y ago
  Right. But it can be demanded by the norms of society as a whole.
  - hprotagonist 6y ago
    Sure. I see a lot of burnt offerings from people with blood on their hands. I don’t see very much learning to do right or defending the orphans. Worth noting at the political level that people who do start making positive amends do actually get praised for it: here’s the extremely left NY Mag praising mitt romney: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02/mitt-romney-child-allowance-covid-stimulus.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02/mitt-romney-child-al... Nobody cares about hollow prattling. (If you are of the religious bent: God specifically doesn't care at all about mouthing off but doing nothing.) Trumpist enablers will be forgiven, more or less, round about the time they take positive steps towards reuniting babies with their parents and taking them out of cages. Take that cross and walk with it humbly and people will come around.
dsrnewell 6y ago
Right. At the societal level, forgiveness follows contrition and the rituals of repentance. But there are no such rituals that can lead to forgiveness now. That is the problem. Even when people seek forgiveness, are sincere, and do what they can, they are still not forgiven. On a personal level, we need to forgive everyone, for our own sakes.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

uyuyututu474 6y ago

> the first breach of the Rotunda since 1811 People keep repeating this but it's false: Armed Black Panthers occupied the Capitol on May 2th, 1967. See photo here: https://capitolweekly.net/black-panthers-armed-capitol/ https://capitolweekly.net/black-panthers-armed-capitol/

klyrs 6y ago
That was the capitol building of California. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1967#May_2,_1967_(Tuesday) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1967#May_2,_1967_(Tuesday)

dsrnewell 6y ago

Re: “this post as a stalking horse...” see: https://realclearconservatism.com/2021/01/18/in-defense-of-all-we-hold-dear/ https://realclearconservatism.com/2021/01/18/in-defense-of-a... The Republican Party is no longer truly conservative, but populist and/or right-libertarian. Forgiveness is needed by all sides and is also needed well beyond politics.

wombatmobile 6y ago

> I’m mostly inclined to view this post as a stalking horse for the current american republican talking points It reads like a stalking horse, starting with small step motherhood statements... "Forgiveness is one of the most, if not the most, essential virtue for any civilized society." Setting the bar so low, no reasonable person could object... "Professionals who years earlier used an inappropriate slur are fired, despite sincere apologies." Then begins the ascent towards overreach... "Because of a lack of forgiveness, people are not allowed to mature, they are not allowed to change." Then it gets ambitious and pointed... "Even those guilty of criminal behavior need the forgiveness of both society and the individuals harmed by the crime." Before the grand finale triple reverse twist mafioso dismount: "Without forgiveness, America will continue to devolve into Thomas Hobbes’ dystopian vision of the pre-civilized, natural state of life for man as, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”"

quasirandom 6y ago

Then hear it from someone you are less likely to distrust. [1] [1] https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/12/martha-minow-on-the-power-of-forgiveness/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/12/martha-minow-...

hprotagonist 6y ago
I’ll also take william barber at his word. I think the original post is a stalking horse because it makes a claim i find to be true and unobjectionable, but i suspect the group making the claim is doing so duplicitously to avoid proper responsibility.
- hprotagonist 6y ago
  c.f. https://time.com/5931343/william-barber-inaugural-prayer-service-sermon/ https://time.com/5931343/william-barber-inaugural-prayer-ser...
coolgeek 6y ago
Martha Minow signed the letter calling Trump's First Amendment (wrt insurrection liability) defense frivolous. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/us/trump-defense-first-amendment.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/us/trump-defense-first-am... As such, I'd expect her views here to be quite a bit more nuanced than what she wrote two years ago about the legal system in general (as a whole).

pjc50 6y ago

I think it's a bit broader than that, hence the mention of pronoun; but the problem is the same. Forgiving the unrepentant may be Christian but it puts you in the "cooperate" side of a repeated game of Prisoner's Dilemma where they can just "defect" against you again. There has to be repentance first. A good apology clearly acknowledges the error, agrees that they were in the wrong, and includes a (implied or explicit) commitment to not do it again, as well as (where applicable) making good any real damage done. Whereas up until now the strategy seems to have been to retaliate to being called out on being wrong by going even further, louder, and deeper into wrongness.