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> some jurisdictions have tackled models whose body fat percentage is dangerously low [...] What are you talking about here? > unhealthily large muscles Taki

by nsajko 6y ago

> some jurisdictions have tackled models whose body fat percentage is dangerously low [...] What are you talking about here? > unhealthily large muscles Taking steroids and other activities related to bodybuilding and sports more generally can sure take their toll, but I'm pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large muscles. > most body builders are unhealthy low in fat Source? > But of course, that is not what they desire, for that falls under what they consider to be their conventional ideal of beauty [...] Aren't you contradicting your point now? Or maybe I misunderstood what your point is?

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> What are you talking about here? Some jurisdictions do not allow models under a certain b.m.i. to be commercially featured: https://www.euronews.com/2017/09/06/counties-fighting-underweight-modelling https://www.euronews.com/2017/09/06/counties-fighting-underw... > Taking steroids and other activities related to bodybuilding and sports more generally can sure take their toll, but I'm pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large muscles. They do, their low body fat can't support them and they suffer from a myriad of complications. Even if they had the body fat to support them, such as in many professional athletes, the strain to achieve them is not particularly healthy. > Source? https://abcnews.go.com/Health/legendary-bodybuilder-died-body-fat-lives/story?id=29899438 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/legendary-bodybuilder-died-bod... As the article says, professional body builders often go in the 3-to-5% body fat range, which is very unhealthy. > Aren't you contradicting your point now? Or maybe I misunderstood what your point is? Not at all; — I'm saying that “health” is but a convenient excuse to ban what the authoritarian considers not socially desirable, in this case for an ideal of beauty, whereas he is fine with letting stand that which he considers beautiful, no matter how unhealthy it might be.
- nsajko 6y ago
  About the Euronews link, I disagree with your conclusion. The mentioned laws are just red tape (for an explanation see my reply to pacaro here). The hard limits on BMI seem to come from industry self-regulation.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    Let's assume that be the case. The politicians allow this nonsensical, pseudoscientific self-regulation instead of demanding that they switch to b.f.p., because they know well that it would outlaw body builders, which they do not want, despite their being as unhealthy. The industry came up with this method, of course, to allow bodybuilders to continue, and only having to cull the the hyperthin. It's a nice unspoken understanding between them that enables both to place the blame on the other. If the industry had found such a clever way to allow the hyperthin to still continue, one could be certain of that the politicians would step in to order a halt to it.
    - nsajko 6y ago
      I think you're hugely overestimating the politicians here, I doubt that even a significant proportion gives much thought to these issues ;)
      - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
        And thought woud suddenly be given if the industry's self-regulation found a way to permit the models they want to ban because they think them too ugly. Indeed, not much thought was given: they found certain models to look ugly because they were hyperthin, so they instinctively searched for a rationalization to ban them and selling it as something other than social control, and “health” is very often the first excuse to be reached for then.
    - watwut 6y ago
      Nah. Bodybuilders are fat by mbi. BMI is or was used also in context that where it literally harmed bodybuilders - by BMI they are fat. Politicians doing these decisions dont go too deep. BMI is widely know, easy to calculate metric everybody knows. And that is all there is to it.
      - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
        But the politicians aren't banning overweight models, only underweight models. I'm sure these same politicians have medical advisors, who advised them against using b.m.i. and also pointed out what I said here.
pacaro 6y ago
France, Italy, Spain, and Israel all have laws about the weight of fashion models. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39821036 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39821036
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  Indeed, weight. — they all use b.m.i. as an indicator, rather than the far more reliable b.f.p., because they are hampered by the fact that the latter, correctly, indicates that most body builders are very unhealthy, and the former, as one of it's many problems, fails to correctly indicate that, or even indicates that they are overweight, when they are severely underweight. And correct science is a politician's greatest enemy, for it demonstrates that his ideals and morality are arbitrary, and that the explanations he proffers to substantiate his moral control are purely ad hoc. The very reason they choose b.m.i. is because it was never about healthy, as they proffered, but about subjective æsthetics standards, so they needed a scale that indicated that, rather than health, all the while masking as one that was reflective of health.
- nsajko 6y ago
  That's just red tape. That is, if you're a model, you just have to get a doctor to "certify you healthy", which I'm sure isn't at all difficult as they can pick any doctor. Note that the modelling agency will probably "help" with this, as it's very much in their interest to do so. And note the quote from BBC: "But the final version, backed by MPs 2015, allows doctors to decide whether a model is too thin by taking into account their weight, age, and body shape." (so the decision is arbitrary).
belorn 6y ago
> but I'm pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large muscles. There is actually a body dysmorphic disorder called Muscle dysmorphia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_dysmorphia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_dysmorphia). It is pretty easy to see the similarities of similar disorders. In general I would also suspect a higher rate of injuries related to those exercise that maintain that large muscle mass, and potential risk factors in regard to diet.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  The existence of a disorder means little more than that a psychiatrist has given it a name; it has nothing to do with the actual existence of the symptoms so named in the disorder. No doubt symptoms for virtually any desire to have something with one's body exist. Personally, I am unnaturally obsessive with my haircut and even the smallest imperfections with it that only I can see annoy me to no end with no one else seeing the difference. — I am quite certain that if this were more common, some psychiatrist would give it a name, and thus it would “exist” as a disorder. Regardless of such nomenclature, the symptoms exist in at least one man, and probably many more.
3131s 6y ago
> I'm pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large muscles. Well, you're wrong. Your heart has to work harder to pump blood whether you are 300 lbs of muscle or 300 lbs of fat, it doesn't matter. This is well-known, so maybe do a little research?
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Is the amount of work your heart has to do at issue here? Can you point to some articles talking about this?

by nsajko 6y ago

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

> What are you talking about here? Some jurisdictions do not allow models under a certain b.m.i. to be commercially featured: https://www.euronews.com/2017/09/06/counties-fighting-underweight-modelling https://www.euronews.com/2017/09/06/counties-fighting-underw... > Taking steroids and other activities related to bodybuilding and sports more generally can sure take their toll, but I'm pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large muscles. They do, their low body fat can't support them and they suffer from a myriad of complications. Even if they had the body fat to support them, such as in many professional athletes, the strain to achieve them is not particularly healthy. > Source? https://abcnews.go.com/Health/legendary-bodybuilder-died-body-fat-lives/story?id=29899438 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/legendary-bodybuilder-died-bod... As the article says, professional body builders often go in the 3-to-5% body fat range, which is very unhealthy. > Aren't you contradicting your point now? Or maybe I misunderstood what your point is? Not at all; — I'm saying that “health” is but a convenient excuse to ban what the authoritarian considers not socially desirable, in this case for an ideal of beauty, whereas he is fine with letting stand that which he considers beautiful, no matter how unhealthy it might be.

nsajko 6y ago
About the Euronews link, I disagree with your conclusion. The mentioned laws are just red tape (for an explanation see my reply to pacaro here). The hard limits on BMI seem to come from industry self-regulation.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  Let's assume that be the case. The politicians allow this nonsensical, pseudoscientific self-regulation instead of demanding that they switch to b.f.p., because they know well that it would outlaw body builders, which they do not want, despite their being as unhealthy. The industry came up with this method, of course, to allow bodybuilders to continue, and only having to cull the the hyperthin. It's a nice unspoken understanding between them that enables both to place the blame on the other. If the industry had found such a clever way to allow the hyperthin to still continue, one could be certain of that the politicians would step in to order a halt to it.
  - nsajko 6y ago
    I think you're hugely overestimating the politicians here, I doubt that even a significant proportion gives much thought to these issues ;)
    - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
      And thought woud suddenly be given if the industry's self-regulation found a way to permit the models they want to ban because they think them too ugly. Indeed, not much thought was given: they found certain models to look ugly because they were hyperthin, so they instinctively searched for a rationalization to ban them and selling it as something other than social control, and “health” is very often the first excuse to be reached for then.
  - watwut 6y ago
    Nah. Bodybuilders are fat by mbi. BMI is or was used also in context that where it literally harmed bodybuilders - by BMI they are fat. Politicians doing these decisions dont go too deep. BMI is widely know, easy to calculate metric everybody knows. And that is all there is to it.
    - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
      But the politicians aren't banning overweight models, only underweight models. I'm sure these same politicians have medical advisors, who advised them against using b.m.i. and also pointed out what I said here.

pacaro 6y ago

France, Italy, Spain, and Israel all have laws about the weight of fashion models. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39821036 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39821036

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Indeed, weight. — they all use b.m.i. as an indicator, rather than the far more reliable b.f.p., because they are hampered by the fact that the latter, correctly, indicates that most body builders are very unhealthy, and the former, as one of it's many problems, fails to correctly indicate that, or even indicates that they are overweight, when they are severely underweight. And correct science is a politician's greatest enemy, for it demonstrates that his ideals and morality are arbitrary, and that the explanations he proffers to substantiate his moral control are purely ad hoc. The very reason they choose b.m.i. is because it was never about healthy, as they proffered, but about subjective æsthetics standards, so they needed a scale that indicated that, rather than health, all the while masking as one that was reflective of health.
nsajko 6y ago
That's just red tape. That is, if you're a model, you just have to get a doctor to "certify you healthy", which I'm sure isn't at all difficult as they can pick any doctor. Note that the modelling agency will probably "help" with this, as it's very much in their interest to do so. And note the quote from BBC: "But the final version, backed by MPs 2015, allows doctors to decide whether a model is too thin by taking into account their weight, age, and body shape." (so the decision is arbitrary).

belorn 6y ago

> but I'm pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large muscles. There is actually a body dysmorphic disorder called Muscle dysmorphia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_dysmorphia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_dysmorphia). It is pretty easy to see the similarities of similar disorders. In general I would also suspect a higher rate of injuries related to those exercise that maintain that large muscle mass, and potential risk factors in regard to diet.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
The existence of a disorder means little more than that a psychiatrist has given it a name; it has nothing to do with the actual existence of the symptoms so named in the disorder. No doubt symptoms for virtually any desire to have something with one's body exist. Personally, I am unnaturally obsessive with my haircut and even the smallest imperfections with it that only I can see annoy me to no end with no one else seeing the difference. — I am quite certain that if this were more common, some psychiatrist would give it a name, and thus it would “exist” as a disorder. Regardless of such nomenclature, the symptoms exist in at least one man, and probably many more.

3131s 6y ago

> I'm pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large muscles. Well, you're wrong. Your heart has to work harder to pump blood whether you are 300 lbs of muscle or 300 lbs of fat, it doesn't matter. This is well-known, so maybe do a little research?

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
Is the amount of work your heart has to do at issue here? Can you point to some articles talking about this?