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... really? You've never wanted to be attractive to whatever gender you're attracted to? I find it surprising that this can be "totally foreign" to any human

... really? You've never wanted to be attractive to whatever gender you're attracted to? I find it surprising that this can be "totally foreign" to any human that's not asexual. Being the most attractive version of yourself that you can be isn't just about sex, either. It really does open doors socially and economically. Right or wrong, people enjoy the company of people who put thought and effort into their appearance. And if for no other reason, your partner certainly appreciates it!

samatman 6y ago
It surprises you, on Hacker News, to find someone who doesn't give a lot of thought to his appearance and thinks it's weird that other people do? Not that we should go around calling people 'neckbeards', it's rude, but there's a reason the term exists.
- RealityVoid 6y ago
  Not OP. But, maybe, a bit, it does surprise me. Most programmers I know in real life are not neck beards and quite presentable, despite what the cliche' is like.
  - goldenchrome 6y ago
    “Presentable” and “attractive” are often different things. Most engineers I know put in enough effort to be presentable, but not attractive.
    - vmception 6y ago
      You wouldn’t know the others are engineers.
  - jlos 6y ago
    The traits associated with technical skills definitely bump the distribution more to the side of 'neckbeard'. So, yes, most programmers are normal (well groomed, exercise, developed social skills) but the number people who show no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind is noticably higher and account for the tropes.
    - Noumenon72 6y ago
      I like that "no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind". I spent some time worrying about what "people" would think when I was young, but never "what does that individual person think?" And I never spent any time trying to be attractive because I didn't find men attractive. Reddit helped me read everyone else's minds and made me more normal, but I still don't have conversations where I'm thinking "How are they reacting to what I said?" or "What will they do if I act like this?"
      - aksss 6y ago
        I see you, Larry David.
  - curuinor 6y ago
    I always assumed the unpresentable ones never showed up in person to things and therefore didn't present themselves to me
rmah 6y ago
Of course I have. But that's not what she described. From what I read it was a near obsession, consuming her thoughts on a near constant basis. THAT is what I found foreign. And of course being more attractive makes life easier. Did I say even once that it did not? That's blatantly obvious. But do you really actively think about if strangers that you happen pass on the street or in a store find you hot? This is what she described. Everyone cares what some other people think of them. Friends, family, collogues, and people they're attracted to, etc. Some people care more, some people care less. But, I think, most people don't really care too much what complete strangers think to the point where they actively think about it while passing them by. Or do they?
- nkingsy 6y ago
  I’m not an attractive woman so I can’t say for sure, but I have been obviously “checked out” by women before, and it made an impact on my mental state. If someone were to become used to that, I’d imagine clear changes to that feedback would become noteworthy, especially in a confessional essay.
- hn_user82179 6y ago
  I think that's one of the points of the article, or at least an observation. Bodybuilding made her more attractive to men, then as she excelled, made her much less attractive to them. The world changed around her as she changed appearance, as men held open the door for her or ignored her, corresponding to her attractiveness. Bodybuilding for women was for years obsessed with making sure the competitors preserved their femininity, as if building too much muscle takes that away from a women. One of her idol (Bev Francis)'s major contributions to the field were ignored by the gym friend, because he viewed Francis as being too unattractive to have sex with, and that was all he cared about. Beyond that, I think it's extraordinarily hard to not care what strangers think of you. Not a particular stranger, but just strangers as a whole. Depending on where you live (e.g.catcalling is more common in particular cultures or more metro areas), you can have people commenting on your appearance every day. After years of that, of course you start noticing the comments being more or less nice, or more or less frequent, and I imagine it's easy to obsess over it. It should be pointed out though that it's clear the author doesn't enjoy obsessing over how men think of her - I imagine these are more intrusive thoughts. I enjoyed a feminist lit book with similar themes of a character who embraced being 'unf*ckable' called "Dietland". The 2nd half of the book goes off the rails but the first half was thought-provoking to me, for anyone who might be interested.

samatman 6y ago

It surprises you, on Hacker News, to find someone who doesn't give a lot of thought to his appearance and thinks it's weird that other people do? Not that we should go around calling people 'neckbeards', it's rude, but there's a reason the term exists.

RealityVoid 6y ago
Not OP. But, maybe, a bit, it does surprise me. Most programmers I know in real life are not neck beards and quite presentable, despite what the cliche' is like.
- goldenchrome 6y ago
  “Presentable” and “attractive” are often different things. Most engineers I know put in enough effort to be presentable, but not attractive.
  - vmception 6y ago
    You wouldn’t know the others are engineers.
- jlos 6y ago
  The traits associated with technical skills definitely bump the distribution more to the side of 'neckbeard'. So, yes, most programmers are normal (well groomed, exercise, developed social skills) but the number people who show no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind is noticably higher and account for the tropes.
  - Noumenon72 6y ago
    I like that "no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind". I spent some time worrying about what "people" would think when I was young, but never "what does that individual person think?" And I never spent any time trying to be attractive because I didn't find men attractive. Reddit helped me read everyone else's minds and made me more normal, but I still don't have conversations where I'm thinking "How are they reacting to what I said?" or "What will they do if I act like this?"
    - aksss 6y ago
      I see you, Larry David.
- curuinor 6y ago
  I always assumed the unpresentable ones never showed up in person to things and therefore didn't present themselves to me

rmah 6y ago

Of course I have. But that's not what she described. From what I read it was a near obsession, consuming her thoughts on a near constant basis. THAT is what I found foreign. And of course being more attractive makes life easier. Did I say even once that it did not? That's blatantly obvious. But do you really actively think about if strangers that you happen pass on the street or in a store find you hot? This is what she described. Everyone cares what some other people think of them. Friends, family, collogues, and people they're attracted to, etc. Some people care more, some people care less. But, I think, most people don't really care too much what complete strangers think to the point where they actively think about it while passing them by. Or do they?

nkingsy 6y ago
I’m not an attractive woman so I can’t say for sure, but I have been obviously “checked out” by women before, and it made an impact on my mental state. If someone were to become used to that, I’d imagine clear changes to that feedback would become noteworthy, especially in a confessional essay.
hn_user82179 6y ago
I think that's one of the points of the article, or at least an observation. Bodybuilding made her more attractive to men, then as she excelled, made her much less attractive to them. The world changed around her as she changed appearance, as men held open the door for her or ignored her, corresponding to her attractiveness. Bodybuilding for women was for years obsessed with making sure the competitors preserved their femininity, as if building too much muscle takes that away from a women. One of her idol (Bev Francis)'s major contributions to the field were ignored by the gym friend, because he viewed Francis as being too unattractive to have sex with, and that was all he cared about. Beyond that, I think it's extraordinarily hard to not care what strangers think of you. Not a particular stranger, but just strangers as a whole. Depending on where you live (e.g.catcalling is more common in particular cultures or more metro areas), you can have people commenting on your appearance every day. After years of that, of course you start noticing the comments being more or less nice, or more or less frequent, and I imagine it's easy to obsess over it. It should be pointed out though that it's clear the author doesn't enjoy obsessing over how men think of her - I imagine these are more intrusive thoughts. I enjoyed a feminist lit book with similar themes of a character who embraced being 'unf*ckable' called "Dietland". The 2nd half of the book goes off the rails but the first half was thought-provoking to me, for anyone who might be interested.