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I usually don't read articles like this, but it was so well written that I was sort of sucked into it. What was most interesting to me was not the various cont

by rmah 6y ago

I usually don't read articles like this, but it was so well written that I was sort of sucked into it. What was most interesting to me was not the various controversies about body aesthetics or even health consequences. What stood out to me was the author's description in the early parts of the article of how much she seemed to crave the approval of strangers, especially men. It was thought provoking and I'm still processing it. I find this way of thinking completely foreign. I know intellectually that many people need external affirmation... but from total strangers whom you barely interact with? I can't help but feel a bit sad that so many go through their lives this way.

nostromo 6y ago
... really? You've never wanted to be attractive to whatever gender you're attracted to? I find it surprising that this can be "totally foreign" to any human that's not asexual. Being the most attractive version of yourself that you can be isn't just about sex, either. It really does open doors socially and economically. Right or wrong, people enjoy the company of people who put thought and effort into their appearance. And if for no other reason, your partner certainly appreciates it!
- samatman 6y ago
  It surprises you, on Hacker News, to find someone who doesn't give a lot of thought to his appearance and thinks it's weird that other people do? Not that we should go around calling people 'neckbeards', it's rude, but there's a reason the term exists.
  - RealityVoid 6y ago
    Not OP. But, maybe, a bit, it does surprise me. Most programmers I know in real life are not neck beards and quite presentable, despite what the cliche' is like.
    - goldenchrome 6y ago
      “Presentable” and “attractive” are often different things. Most engineers I know put in enough effort to be presentable, but not attractive.
      - vmception 6y ago
        You wouldn’t know the others are engineers.
    - jlos 6y ago
      The traits associated with technical skills definitely bump the distribution more to the side of 'neckbeard'. So, yes, most programmers are normal (well groomed, exercise, developed social skills) but the number people who show no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind is noticably higher and account for the tropes.
      - Noumenon72 6y ago
        I like that "no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind". I spent some time worrying about what "people" would think when I was young, but never "what does that individual person think?" And I never spent any time trying to be attractive because I didn't find men attractive. Reddit helped me read everyone else's minds and made me more normal, but I still don't have conversations where I'm thinking "How are they reacting to what I said?" or "What will they do if I act like this?"
        aksss 6y ago
        I see you, Larry David.
    - curuinor 6y ago
      I always assumed the unpresentable ones never showed up in person to things and therefore didn't present themselves to me
- rmah 6y ago
  Of course I have. But that's not what she described. From what I read it was a near obsession, consuming her thoughts on a near constant basis. THAT is what I found foreign. And of course being more attractive makes life easier. Did I say even once that it did not? That's blatantly obvious. But do you really actively think about if strangers that you happen pass on the street or in a store find you hot? This is what she described. Everyone cares what some other people think of them. Friends, family, collogues, and people they're attracted to, etc. Some people care more, some people care less. But, I think, most people don't really care too much what complete strangers think to the point where they actively think about it while passing them by. Or do they?
  - nkingsy 6y ago
    I’m not an attractive woman so I can’t say for sure, but I have been obviously “checked out” by women before, and it made an impact on my mental state. If someone were to become used to that, I’d imagine clear changes to that feedback would become noteworthy, especially in a confessional essay.
  - hn_user82179 6y ago
    I think that's one of the points of the article, or at least an observation. Bodybuilding made her more attractive to men, then as she excelled, made her much less attractive to them. The world changed around her as she changed appearance, as men held open the door for her or ignored her, corresponding to her attractiveness. Bodybuilding for women was for years obsessed with making sure the competitors preserved their femininity, as if building too much muscle takes that away from a women. One of her idol (Bev Francis)'s major contributions to the field were ignored by the gym friend, because he viewed Francis as being too unattractive to have sex with, and that was all he cared about. Beyond that, I think it's extraordinarily hard to not care what strangers think of you. Not a particular stranger, but just strangers as a whole. Depending on where you live (e.g.catcalling is more common in particular cultures or more metro areas), you can have people commenting on your appearance every day. After years of that, of course you start noticing the comments being more or less nice, or more or less frequent, and I imagine it's easy to obsess over it. It should be pointed out though that it's clear the author doesn't enjoy obsessing over how men think of her - I imagine these are more intrusive thoughts. I enjoyed a feminist lit book with similar themes of a character who embraced being 'unf*ckable' called "Dietland". The 2nd half of the book goes off the rails but the first half was thought-provoking to me, for anyone who might be interested.
Herodotus38 6y ago
This magazine is a great one for getting me to read long articles about things I didn’t think would be interesting. It seems like they attract writers that are more honest and human about their motivations than you see in other places.
- kevinarpe 6y ago
  Thank you to share. If you have time, can you add links to other stories that caught your attention? I would like to read more!
  - Herodotus38 6y ago
    I used to have a paper subscription to it 16 years ago, so most of my memories are from then. See if you can find links to the audio-visual cds/dvds too. I am working a lot for the next 2 days but I’ll try and reply, check back in 3-4 days.
  - Herodotus38 6y ago
    OK I have some time, I hope you are able to see this: Great piece on the reality of living in Las Vegas: https://believermag.com/the-people-of-las-vegas/ https://believermag.com/the-people-of-las-vegas/ An interview with Terry Gilliam (of Monty Python) from one of the early publications: https://believermag.com/an-interview-with-terry-gilliam/ https://believermag.com/an-interview-with-terry-gilliam/ This volume came with a DVD that had a bunch of great artsy videos I used to watch a lot: https://believermag.com/product/the-believer-december-2004-january-2005/ https://believermag.com/product/the-believer-december-2004-j... Hope you get some enjoyment from reading these or finding other things.
temporallobe 6y ago
Wanting affirmation from and to be attracted by others around you (total strangers included) is basic human nature. It’s why we adorn ourselves with clothing and perfume, not to mention our skin and hair, whatever gender you are. I am a male and always want to seem attractive in physique and in character to the opposite sex, and even in some level to the same sex. My wife insists she doesn’t care what other people think about how she looks but she spends hours doing her hair and makeup when she goes somewhere with me or by herself. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this and it is completely healthy from a psychological standpoint.
- dorkwood 6y ago
  I generally don't care what people think of my appearance, but I'll still shave and comb my hair before meeting people -- not because I want to impress them, but because it says "I value you enough to make at least a little bit of effort if we're going to be seen together in public".
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Honestly, a shower in the morning, a brush and maybe some product and being reasonably healthy already puts you at a great advantage over others. It doesn't take two hours of Bateman level prep (unless you aim to supermodel levels), or a life dedicated to sports.
  - bshimmin 6y ago
    Are you trying to say you don't use a herb-mint facial mask as part of your morning routine?
    - kridsdale1 6y ago
      I can do over a thousand crunches now.
lr4444lr 6y ago
Because it's objective. Strangers, in the aggregate, have little incentive to modify their gut reaction to how you present yourself.
tkgally 6y ago
I also found the article fascinating for the insights the author shows about her own thoughts and motivations. When I started working out at a gym, when I was in my early fifties, I barely knew that bodybuilding existed. But the gym I happened to join in Tokyo turned out to be popular with amateur bodybuilders, and I exercised near them most evenings for more than ten years. I became acquainted with quite a few of them, including some of the top bodybuilders in Japan, and made friends with several, but I never really understood what drove them. Although most of them had full-time jobs, they worked out nearly every evening for a couple of hours, and when the summer competition season approached they would drastically restrict their diets and start spending money on skincare and tanning. It looked to me like self-torture, but many of them continued this year after year. In my job, in foreign-language education, I think a lot about what motivates some adults to keep studying long and hard enough to become proficient in a foreign language, as relatively few actually succeed. I tried to get some insights about motivation from watching and talking to the bodybuilders, but I didn’t really learn much. This article helped.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  >In my job, in foreign-language education, I think a lot about what motivates some adults to keep studying long and hard enough to become proficient in a foreign language, as relatively few actually succeed. I'm not sure I would compare something like bodybuilding with foreign languages. At some point you become proficient enough in a language that you can simply consume movies, TV shows, books, news etc that the language learning becomes mostly effortless. Becoming really proficient at a language requires someone to immerse themselves in it (to use it for a purpose without easy fallbacks). The internet has been amazing for learning English. I don't know anyone that became proficient at a language by studying it. It's always been through use. The studying just creates a base that allows a person to start using the language. Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Language learning is much more flexible in this. You might forget what you learned, but the next time you try to learn the same thing it's much easier.
  - Lopiolis 6y ago
    > Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Well, maintaining your current level of strength is far easier to do than maintaining continuous progress (especially at more advanced stages, which you have to do a lot of fuckery around programming/scheduling in order to realize any progress at all). You just can't do nothing, but the same goes for languages. If you don't use a language at all, your proficiency atrophies over time as well. It's just not something people really think about. If you were to reach a level of strength you were happy with, you could just figure out a maintenance program and focus your physical energy on other pursuits, extreme sports, slacklining, bouldering, hiking, whatever.
mandevil 6y ago
Right. Who would count their karma points here on Hacker News and make a big deal about how many strangers anonymously clicked on the up arrow next to their post?
- watwut 6y ago
  I actually know such person. That is exactly what happened - karma was supposed to be proxy for social status and mine was lower so I was supposedly not allowed to argue against that person.
op03 6y ago
Reward Dependence - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_dependence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_dependence
ivanhoe 6y ago
I don't think for self-validation it matters much if someone is a complete stranger or not, it's more about where in the perceived social hierarchy that person sits. Attention from someone who you feel is "higher" in the social tree is a positive, ego boosting signal, and we're wired to react to that. That's the core mechanics behind animal groups organization, and while human society tolerates individualism to much larger extent than other animals, still we're hard-coded to strive for it. I think very few people have such amount of healthy ego that their self-esteem is completely independent from their environments social signals - and it's not necessarily a healthy sign, as it might be also a consequence of some personality disorders.
renewiltord 6y ago
Doesn't feel all that different from obsessively posting on web forums for karma. Which is something I do.
ip26 6y ago
Total strangers are the most honest signal of whether you are generally attractive.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
I was a ridiculously cute little girl and I'm pretty damn sure a lot of my social issues as a young adult were rooted in getting essentially trained to play to the crowd as a toddler. At that age, it's a form of brainwashing and it's amazingly hard to root out after you become an adult and are puzzled that your antics no longer get you adoration. (PSA: Please don't do this to your own children. It's an awful thing to experience.) My oldest son was a ridiculously cute toddler but I never taught him that he was expected to play to the crowd. So when he got to be school age and found that too much social attention was actively problematic, he was able to choose to intentionally behave differently. This is likely to some degree a gender difference. Girls seem to get a lot more social pressure generally to "be cute" and to engage socially in a performative manner.
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  On a tangentially related note, I've noticed that many heterosexual men imagine the comedian Felix Kjellberg (AKA Pewdiepie) must be the height of attractiveness for women, while few heterosexual women find him particularly attractive. I found this very confusing, but after a few discussions with heterosexual female friends of mine we've come to the conclusion that the kind of playfulness and disinhibition this persona consists of is looks like vivaciousness in a woman but immaturity in a man. I imagine some similar dynamics must be in play there.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    If you are heterosexual, "opposites attract." What is attractive for a woman will almost by definition not be attractive to a woman.
  - graeme 6y ago
    Do you mean personality wise? Physically, I just googled and found he won a most beautiful faces award this year and consistently ranked on the same list. Never heard of TC Candler but their youtube lists have millions of views. I doubt he’s actually objectively #1 but clearly they don’t think he’s unattractive. There’s a lot of variance in female taste, so you frequently see comments along the lines of “[Objectively attractive celebrity X] is not attractive AT ALL”. And the comment is true, for that woman. But it’s very risky to generalize based on a small sample, especially if it’s all from your personal bubble. I guarantee that if Pewdiepie wasn’t famous and you put his photos on Tinder they would do well. He’s lean, young, 5’10”, has good skin and a reasonable fashion sense, and there’s nothing obviously wrong with his face. That alone more or less puts him in the 90% percentile. https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/pewdiepie-most-handsome-2020-trending/ https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/pewdiepie-most-handsome-20...
joshspankit 6y ago
This is much more common than you would imagine. And on both sides of the typical gender roles. (I’m speaking about western society here as it’s what I know, and where I feel like a lot of that need comes from.)
Retric 6y ago
You don’t need that validation, but it’s still very noticeable. The difference between being slightly overweight and ripped is shocking. The world is suddenly a different place where you show up at a large party and several hot women hit on you etc. Granted you need to be otherwise attractive, but it’s not just women men also treat you more positively. Women see a wider range of responses, yet it’s still generally a very positive experience.
- darkerside 6y ago
  I'd say you probably don't even need to be attractive physically in terms of having a pretty face. If you've got a charming personality and you are reasonably in shape, you'll get plenty of attention. You're signaling that you have value and people act accordingly.
  - robocat 6y ago
    > you'll get plenty of attention But qualitatively different attention IMHO. Great looking guy with zero personality: shallow attention e.g. one-night stands or pure accessory. Ugly guy with great personality: veer towards long-term relationships or maybe friend-zoning.
    - darkerside 6y ago
      Disagree. If you think that is true of you, then maybe you don't have as great a personality as you think you do. Women love funny, confident guys.
      - robocat 6y ago
        Ha ha! Actually I was talking about what I have seen in friends and acquaintances, although I have seen exceptions too. Might depend upon country too...
    - kridsdale1 6y ago
      This is a lot more incel-y than I am accustomed to seeing on HackerNews.
roflc0ptic 6y ago
Since the pandemic started, my interactions with strangers of the opposite sex have been quite curtailed. Last week a vague acquaintance in my condo complex, 35 years my senior, stopped me and spent a good 30 seconds telling me how blue my eyes looked, and musing on how my outfit made them stand out especially. On the one hand, this is weirdly objectifying, and I kind of wish she had the slightest interest in who I am as a person - she’s one of those archetypal condo neighbors who mostly just goes around complaining about people. But on the other hand, I had the distinct thought, “Hot dang, Daniel. You’ve still got it.” This thought was steeped in irony, but at its kernel, there’s a stark emotional reality there. I’m even tolerably well adjusted. Positive attention from strangers is a singularly terrible thing to hinge your wellbeing on, but man. It sure feels nice. I would comment that many men seem use sex with women as a form of self esteem boosting. Like, if I fuck enough women, the emotional void inside of me will finally fill and I’ll know I’m worthy. Women do the attention seeking stuff more overtly, and they’re encouraged and allowed to display themselves as objects. men have a pretty similar set of emotional drives, just have different avenues for acting them out.
- kergonath 6y ago
  Nice story (first paragraph; third paragraph rings all too true). I don't think being told you have beautiful eyes is necessarily objectifying, though.
  - Cthulhu_ 6y ago
    Objectification is where you disregard all aspects of a person in favor of what they look like; the word literally means treating a person like an object. Think posters of swimsuit models on the walls. Anyway like another person in this thread mentioned, while it's shit, at the same time it feels nice to get complimented on a feature of yours, especially if it's a novel experience. I've never felt like I was particularly attractive, because I got zero feedback on my appearance during my formative years - good OR bad. But I'm in my mid thirties now and my girlfriend has the hots for me, so that's nice :D.
    - 6y ago
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> What was most interesting to me was not the various controversies about body aesthetics or even health consequences. What stood out to me was the author's description in the early parts of the article of how much she seemed to crave the approval of strangers, especially men. We very much stand on opposite ends. Fools exist, and many fools try to phrase their foolishness in terms of gender so to arouse the impression that they have an excuse. Not a day goes by that I see a man attempt to excuse his foolishness by claiming it stems from his gender, his ethnicity, his religion, or anything else. Needlessly craving the approval of others has nothing to do with gender, — some do so, and some do not. > I can't help but feel a bit sad that so many go through their lives this way. Foolish behavior exists everywhere in many forms. Some crave the approval of others to deluded paranoia of rejection; others wish to control their fellow man for no purpose but control itself; yet others are disproportionally afraid of very specific, uncommon things, yet ignore far more common dangers. — it is old news.

by rmah 6y ago

nostromo 6y ago

... really? You've never wanted to be attractive to whatever gender you're attracted to? I find it surprising that this can be "totally foreign" to any human that's not asexual. Being the most attractive version of yourself that you can be isn't just about sex, either. It really does open doors socially and economically. Right or wrong, people enjoy the company of people who put thought and effort into their appearance. And if for no other reason, your partner certainly appreciates it!

samatman 6y ago
It surprises you, on Hacker News, to find someone who doesn't give a lot of thought to his appearance and thinks it's weird that other people do? Not that we should go around calling people 'neckbeards', it's rude, but there's a reason the term exists.
- RealityVoid 6y ago
  Not OP. But, maybe, a bit, it does surprise me. Most programmers I know in real life are not neck beards and quite presentable, despite what the cliche' is like.
  - goldenchrome 6y ago
    “Presentable” and “attractive” are often different things. Most engineers I know put in enough effort to be presentable, but not attractive.
    - vmception 6y ago
      You wouldn’t know the others are engineers.
  - jlos 6y ago
    The traits associated with technical skills definitely bump the distribution more to the side of 'neckbeard'. So, yes, most programmers are normal (well groomed, exercise, developed social skills) but the number people who show no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind is noticably higher and account for the tropes.
    - Noumenon72 6y ago
      I like that "no compelling evidence they possess a theory of mind". I spent some time worrying about what "people" would think when I was young, but never "what does that individual person think?" And I never spent any time trying to be attractive because I didn't find men attractive. Reddit helped me read everyone else's minds and made me more normal, but I still don't have conversations where I'm thinking "How are they reacting to what I said?" or "What will they do if I act like this?"
      - aksss 6y ago
        I see you, Larry David.
  - curuinor 6y ago
    I always assumed the unpresentable ones never showed up in person to things and therefore didn't present themselves to me
rmah 6y ago
Of course I have. But that's not what she described. From what I read it was a near obsession, consuming her thoughts on a near constant basis. THAT is what I found foreign. And of course being more attractive makes life easier. Did I say even once that it did not? That's blatantly obvious. But do you really actively think about if strangers that you happen pass on the street or in a store find you hot? This is what she described. Everyone cares what some other people think of them. Friends, family, collogues, and people they're attracted to, etc. Some people care more, some people care less. But, I think, most people don't really care too much what complete strangers think to the point where they actively think about it while passing them by. Or do they?
- nkingsy 6y ago
  I’m not an attractive woman so I can’t say for sure, but I have been obviously “checked out” by women before, and it made an impact on my mental state. If someone were to become used to that, I’d imagine clear changes to that feedback would become noteworthy, especially in a confessional essay.
- hn_user82179 6y ago
  I think that's one of the points of the article, or at least an observation. Bodybuilding made her more attractive to men, then as she excelled, made her much less attractive to them. The world changed around her as she changed appearance, as men held open the door for her or ignored her, corresponding to her attractiveness. Bodybuilding for women was for years obsessed with making sure the competitors preserved their femininity, as if building too much muscle takes that away from a women. One of her idol (Bev Francis)'s major contributions to the field were ignored by the gym friend, because he viewed Francis as being too unattractive to have sex with, and that was all he cared about. Beyond that, I think it's extraordinarily hard to not care what strangers think of you. Not a particular stranger, but just strangers as a whole. Depending on where you live (e.g.catcalling is more common in particular cultures or more metro areas), you can have people commenting on your appearance every day. After years of that, of course you start noticing the comments being more or less nice, or more or less frequent, and I imagine it's easy to obsess over it. It should be pointed out though that it's clear the author doesn't enjoy obsessing over how men think of her - I imagine these are more intrusive thoughts. I enjoyed a feminist lit book with similar themes of a character who embraced being 'unf*ckable' called "Dietland". The 2nd half of the book goes off the rails but the first half was thought-provoking to me, for anyone who might be interested.

Herodotus38 6y ago

This magazine is a great one for getting me to read long articles about things I didn’t think would be interesting. It seems like they attract writers that are more honest and human about their motivations than you see in other places.

kevinarpe 6y ago
Thank you to share. If you have time, can you add links to other stories that caught your attention? I would like to read more!
- Herodotus38 6y ago
  I used to have a paper subscription to it 16 years ago, so most of my memories are from then. See if you can find links to the audio-visual cds/dvds too. I am working a lot for the next 2 days but I’ll try and reply, check back in 3-4 days.
- Herodotus38 6y ago
  OK I have some time, I hope you are able to see this: Great piece on the reality of living in Las Vegas: https://believermag.com/the-people-of-las-vegas/ https://believermag.com/the-people-of-las-vegas/ An interview with Terry Gilliam (of Monty Python) from one of the early publications: https://believermag.com/an-interview-with-terry-gilliam/ https://believermag.com/an-interview-with-terry-gilliam/ This volume came with a DVD that had a bunch of great artsy videos I used to watch a lot: https://believermag.com/product/the-believer-december-2004-january-2005/ https://believermag.com/product/the-believer-december-2004-j... Hope you get some enjoyment from reading these or finding other things.

temporallobe 6y ago

Wanting affirmation from and to be attracted by others around you (total strangers included) is basic human nature. It’s why we adorn ourselves with clothing and perfume, not to mention our skin and hair, whatever gender you are. I am a male and always want to seem attractive in physique and in character to the opposite sex, and even in some level to the same sex. My wife insists she doesn’t care what other people think about how she looks but she spends hours doing her hair and makeup when she goes somewhere with me or by herself. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this and it is completely healthy from a psychological standpoint.

dorkwood 6y ago
I generally don't care what people think of my appearance, but I'll still shave and comb my hair before meeting people -- not because I want to impress them, but because it says "I value you enough to make at least a little bit of effort if we're going to be seen together in public".
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Honestly, a shower in the morning, a brush and maybe some product and being reasonably healthy already puts you at a great advantage over others. It doesn't take two hours of Bateman level prep (unless you aim to supermodel levels), or a life dedicated to sports.
- bshimmin 6y ago
  Are you trying to say you don't use a herb-mint facial mask as part of your morning routine?
  - kridsdale1 6y ago
    I can do over a thousand crunches now.

lr4444lr 6y ago

Because it's objective. Strangers, in the aggregate, have little incentive to modify their gut reaction to how you present yourself.

tkgally 6y ago

I also found the article fascinating for the insights the author shows about her own thoughts and motivations. When I started working out at a gym, when I was in my early fifties, I barely knew that bodybuilding existed. But the gym I happened to join in Tokyo turned out to be popular with amateur bodybuilders, and I exercised near them most evenings for more than ten years. I became acquainted with quite a few of them, including some of the top bodybuilders in Japan, and made friends with several, but I never really understood what drove them. Although most of them had full-time jobs, they worked out nearly every evening for a couple of hours, and when the summer competition season approached they would drastically restrict their diets and start spending money on skincare and tanning. It looked to me like self-torture, but many of them continued this year after year. In my job, in foreign-language education, I think a lot about what motivates some adults to keep studying long and hard enough to become proficient in a foreign language, as relatively few actually succeed. I tried to get some insights about motivation from watching and talking to the bodybuilders, but I didn’t really learn much. This article helped.

Aerroon 6y ago
>In my job, in foreign-language education, I think a lot about what motivates some adults to keep studying long and hard enough to become proficient in a foreign language, as relatively few actually succeed. I'm not sure I would compare something like bodybuilding with foreign languages. At some point you become proficient enough in a language that you can simply consume movies, TV shows, books, news etc that the language learning becomes mostly effortless. Becoming really proficient at a language requires someone to immerse themselves in it (to use it for a purpose without easy fallbacks). The internet has been amazing for learning English. I don't know anyone that became proficient at a language by studying it. It's always been through use. The studying just creates a base that allows a person to start using the language. Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Language learning is much more flexible in this. You might forget what you learned, but the next time you try to learn the same thing it's much easier.
- Lopiolis 6y ago
  > Exercise requires persistence. You can't really have gaps in it, because you lose your progress. Well, maintaining your current level of strength is far easier to do than maintaining continuous progress (especially at more advanced stages, which you have to do a lot of fuckery around programming/scheduling in order to realize any progress at all). You just can't do nothing, but the same goes for languages. If you don't use a language at all, your proficiency atrophies over time as well. It's just not something people really think about. If you were to reach a level of strength you were happy with, you could just figure out a maintenance program and focus your physical energy on other pursuits, extreme sports, slacklining, bouldering, hiking, whatever.

mandevil 6y ago

Right. Who would count their karma points here on Hacker News and make a big deal about how many strangers anonymously clicked on the up arrow next to their post?

watwut 6y ago
I actually know such person. That is exactly what happened - karma was supposed to be proxy for social status and mine was lower so I was supposedly not allowed to argue against that person.

op03 6y ago

Reward Dependence - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_dependence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_dependence

ivanhoe 6y ago

I don't think for self-validation it matters much if someone is a complete stranger or not, it's more about where in the perceived social hierarchy that person sits. Attention from someone who you feel is "higher" in the social tree is a positive, ego boosting signal, and we're wired to react to that. That's the core mechanics behind animal groups organization, and while human society tolerates individualism to much larger extent than other animals, still we're hard-coded to strive for it. I think very few people have such amount of healthy ego that their self-esteem is completely independent from their environments social signals - and it's not necessarily a healthy sign, as it might be also a consequence of some personality disorders.

renewiltord 6y ago

Doesn't feel all that different from obsessively posting on web forums for karma. Which is something I do.

ip26 6y ago

Total strangers are the most honest signal of whether you are generally attractive.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

I was a ridiculously cute little girl and I'm pretty damn sure a lot of my social issues as a young adult were rooted in getting essentially trained to play to the crowd as a toddler. At that age, it's a form of brainwashing and it's amazingly hard to root out after you become an adult and are puzzled that your antics no longer get you adoration. (PSA: Please don't do this to your own children. It's an awful thing to experience.) My oldest son was a ridiculously cute toddler but I never taught him that he was expected to play to the crowd. So when he got to be school age and found that too much social attention was actively problematic, he was able to choose to intentionally behave differently. This is likely to some degree a gender difference. Girls seem to get a lot more social pressure generally to "be cute" and to engage socially in a performative manner.

SuoDuanDao 6y ago
On a tangentially related note, I've noticed that many heterosexual men imagine the comedian Felix Kjellberg (AKA Pewdiepie) must be the height of attractiveness for women, while few heterosexual women find him particularly attractive. I found this very confusing, but after a few discussions with heterosexual female friends of mine we've come to the conclusion that the kind of playfulness and disinhibition this persona consists of is looks like vivaciousness in a woman but immaturity in a man. I imagine some similar dynamics must be in play there.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  If you are heterosexual, "opposites attract." What is attractive for a woman will almost by definition not be attractive to a woman.
- graeme 6y ago
  Do you mean personality wise? Physically, I just googled and found he won a most beautiful faces award this year and consistently ranked on the same list. Never heard of TC Candler but their youtube lists have millions of views. I doubt he’s actually objectively #1 but clearly they don’t think he’s unattractive. There’s a lot of variance in female taste, so you frequently see comments along the lines of “[Objectively attractive celebrity X] is not attractive AT ALL”. And the comment is true, for that woman. But it’s very risky to generalize based on a small sample, especially if it’s all from your personal bubble. I guarantee that if Pewdiepie wasn’t famous and you put his photos on Tinder they would do well. He’s lean, young, 5’10”, has good skin and a reasonable fashion sense, and there’s nothing obviously wrong with his face. That alone more or less puts him in the 90% percentile. https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/pewdiepie-most-handsome-2020-trending/ https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/pewdiepie-most-handsome-20...

joshspankit 6y ago

This is much more common than you would imagine. And on both sides of the typical gender roles. (I’m speaking about western society here as it’s what I know, and where I feel like a lot of that need comes from.)

Retric 6y ago

You don’t need that validation, but it’s still very noticeable. The difference between being slightly overweight and ripped is shocking. The world is suddenly a different place where you show up at a large party and several hot women hit on you etc. Granted you need to be otherwise attractive, but it’s not just women men also treat you more positively. Women see a wider range of responses, yet it’s still generally a very positive experience.

darkerside 6y ago
I'd say you probably don't even need to be attractive physically in terms of having a pretty face. If you've got a charming personality and you are reasonably in shape, you'll get plenty of attention. You're signaling that you have value and people act accordingly.
- robocat 6y ago
  > you'll get plenty of attention But qualitatively different attention IMHO. Great looking guy with zero personality: shallow attention e.g. one-night stands or pure accessory. Ugly guy with great personality: veer towards long-term relationships or maybe friend-zoning.
  - darkerside 6y ago
    Disagree. If you think that is true of you, then maybe you don't have as great a personality as you think you do. Women love funny, confident guys.
    - robocat 6y ago
      Ha ha! Actually I was talking about what I have seen in friends and acquaintances, although I have seen exceptions too. Might depend upon country too...
  - kridsdale1 6y ago
    This is a lot more incel-y than I am accustomed to seeing on HackerNews.

roflc0ptic 6y ago

Since the pandemic started, my interactions with strangers of the opposite sex have been quite curtailed. Last week a vague acquaintance in my condo complex, 35 years my senior, stopped me and spent a good 30 seconds telling me how blue my eyes looked, and musing on how my outfit made them stand out especially. On the one hand, this is weirdly objectifying, and I kind of wish she had the slightest interest in who I am as a person - she’s one of those archetypal condo neighbors who mostly just goes around complaining about people. But on the other hand, I had the distinct thought, “Hot dang, Daniel. You’ve still got it.” This thought was steeped in irony, but at its kernel, there’s a stark emotional reality there. I’m even tolerably well adjusted. Positive attention from strangers is a singularly terrible thing to hinge your wellbeing on, but man. It sure feels nice. I would comment that many men seem use sex with women as a form of self esteem boosting. Like, if I fuck enough women, the emotional void inside of me will finally fill and I’ll know I’m worthy. Women do the attention seeking stuff more overtly, and they’re encouraged and allowed to display themselves as objects. men have a pretty similar set of emotional drives, just have different avenues for acting them out.

kergonath 6y ago
Nice story (first paragraph; third paragraph rings all too true). I don't think being told you have beautiful eyes is necessarily objectifying, though.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Objectification is where you disregard all aspects of a person in favor of what they look like; the word literally means treating a person like an object. Think posters of swimsuit models on the walls. Anyway like another person in this thread mentioned, while it's shit, at the same time it feels nice to get complimented on a feature of yours, especially if it's a novel experience. I've never felt like I was particularly attractive, because I got zero feedback on my appearance during my formative years - good OR bad. But I'm in my mid thirties now and my girlfriend has the hots for me, so that's nice :D.
  - 6y ago

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

> What was most interesting to me was not the various controversies about body aesthetics or even health consequences. What stood out to me was the author's description in the early parts of the article of how much she seemed to crave the approval of strangers, especially men. We very much stand on opposite ends. Fools exist, and many fools try to phrase their foolishness in terms of gender so to arouse the impression that they have an excuse. Not a day goes by that I see a man attempt to excuse his foolishness by claiming it stems from his gender, his ethnicity, his religion, or anything else. Needlessly craving the approval of others has nothing to do with gender, — some do so, and some do not. > I can't help but feel a bit sad that so many go through their lives this way. Foolish behavior exists everywhere in many forms. Some crave the approval of others to deluded paranoia of rejection; others wish to control their fellow man for no purpose but control itself; yet others are disproportionally afraid of very specific, uncommon things, yet ignore far more common dangers. — it is old news.