11 ms·

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's aut

I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it ruins the book for me.

lq313c 6y ago
One should be able to enjoy the works of another based on the work's own merits, separate from the creator's political or personal beliefs. I can enjoy H.P. Lovecraft's stories, despite the author being an abject racist; or like Ford cars, despite Henry Ford's antisemitism and admiration for Hitler. If we would shun all the works of another because we disagree on politics, the world would be a small and boring place indeed.
_carbyau_ 6y ago
Wow. I haven't even read 3bp but it surprises me that even a significant amount of praise/charity for the CCP is an issue. There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. When I do read it, I expect this will hit the same filter.
- cambalache 6y ago
  "Do what I say not what I do" is a universal mantra, very common of course here in HN.
- webmaven 6y ago
  > There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. There is almost as much vilification of the USG as there is glorification. For example, a stereotypical USG Agent Gone Rogue character can just as easily be the hero as the villain in a Hollywood blockbuster (with the rest of the agency, or at least it's leadership, serving as the opposing villain or hero as needed). I don't know enough about Chinese cinema to say for certain whether the equivalent is true in that context, but the superficial impression I have is that it is not.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    In the book we're discussing, the Cultural Revolution is presented as a catastrophe where the heroes are well-meaning scientists who's neutral observations of nature are twisted into being counter-revolutionary. The book covers the Cultural Revolution like US films cover Vietnam: not favorably.
free_rms 6y ago
I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? Liu is Chinese just like most of HN are American so there will be different default stances on international politics, but the books did not read as jingoistic to me.
- kbenson 6y ago
  > I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? That always seemed like a trite argument of those who want to justify their own behavior, and is a cop out in a story. The point of survival is that values change, and can return, but survival is absolute. You fight until there is no other option, then you surrender with the hope that hat you can work towards that goal again in the future. Similarly, the correct choice between slavery and death is slavery, as slavery contains the chance of freedom but death does not. That's not to say the correct choice between slavery and a chance of death is the same thing. But people like to speak in absolutes without this nuance in a way that leads to interesting thought patterns in others that hear it and parrot it.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    I don't know if you read the books but there are some pretty severe consequences.
    - kbenson 6y ago
      Oh, I've read the first two, I was responding to that statement as it's usually applied in conversation or argument. The discussion and exploration of it is worthwhile. It's common use as a "call to arms" less so.
      - free_rms 6y ago
        The third book is good, almost as good as the second imo. Manages to become completely insane while still feeling believable at each step.
PradeetPatel 6y ago
Some may call it self preservation, I would consider it to be a good business move. It is also possible that he was pressured by his publisher to include the postscript to alleviate potential pressure from governmental stakeholders. It has been established that the author's own political views, no matter how incorrect, will have an impact on the story. This is evident in 3BP.
- alpineidyll3 6y ago
  With his current profile if he wished to renounce his support and seek asylum, he could. It would be a stinging betrayal for the party, more effective than any protest that was ever waged for HK... And it wouldn't endanger him or his fortune.
  - actuator 6y ago
    He might be happy and content there. Also, leaving your homeland is a tough decision and he would lose his home audience potentially if he is vocal.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - da_big_ghey 6y ago
    It is well known that the CCP holds one's family hostage in cases when one goes abroad, as collateral against one's return: https://www.businessinsider.com/liu-changming-china-holds-officials-family-hostage-to-force-return-2018-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/liu-changming-china-holds-of... https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-deals-with-dissent-threats-family-arrests-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-deals-with-dissent... It is an open secret that this is the case for many students who come to American universities, and this is often how they coerce them into sending back IP and trade secrets. I would shudder to imagine what might befall the family of a prominent defector that so humiliated the party.
    - glenstein 6y ago
jnsaff2 6y ago
I hope you have read the sequels. The Dark Forest is I believe the most mind-expanding of them and Deaths End goes pretty wild but is still very interesting. I had the luxury of finding out about the problematic CCP leanings after finishing them all. But can’t bring myself to pick up anything other by him.
remolacha 6y ago
Communist party/politics aside, I agree that the beginning of the book had seriously next-level sci-fi creativity, but the last third of the book really rushed the plot. 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character development. Still, great material overall. Can't wait to see an eventual 3bp movie.
- actuator 6y ago
  > 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character development. Maybe it was because of my non familiarity with Chinese names or lack of detail to a lot of characters, that I had to constantly look back to see names if they appeared again after a while. I am not sure why this happened as I have read Manga or Manhwa in the past and have been able to hold a lot more characters in memory.
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > Maybe it was because of my non familiarity with Chinese names or lack of detail to a lot of characters, that I had to constantly look back to see names if they appeared again after a while. I am not sure why this happened as I have read Manga or Manhwa in the past and have been able to hold a lot more characters in memory. I had a similar problem, but don't think it was a lack of character details, but rather that the dialog seems rather undifferentiated. What distinguished one character from another was only what they say, and almost never how they say it.
  - alpineidyll3 6y ago
    I found the number of interesting characters with good realization impressive. Also characters of both genders were almost equally well realized. It just too bad he couldn't bring meaningful resolutions to 90% of them.
- tmp538394722 6y ago
  The huge cast of characters was definitely a challenge for me as well. But I wonder sometimes if it’s more a cultural difference than simply some kind of “failure” on the authors part. Have you seen those videos where old communist leaders gave speeches, they declare some good news, some achievement, and the crowd claps and cheers, and so does the leader. Watch Stalin, watch Mao. To a westerner it looks like they are clapping for themself - taking credit for the victory. But in communism, the results are not that of a “brilliant leader”, but rather the results of history unfolding. They aren’t clapping for themselves, but for society’s progression. I think, similarly in this way, 3bp doesn’t have the “hero narrative” that western authors favor, because the protagonist of 3bp is society as a whole, while the characters themselves are just minor witnesses.
varjag 6y ago
Any good aspiring-communist society book has to have either a Communist Youth or a Commissar character. It's the canon.
elihu 6y ago
Yeah, it also seemed a bit jarring to me how modern China is portrayed so positively in the trilogy. Perhaps this is also how books by Americans are seen in China? One could make a case that, say, Tom Clancy novels are pro-American cold war propaganda. (That's not really my view, but I could understand why someone, especially a reader from one of our cold-war adversaries, might think that.) I think the most jarring bits are plot points where some ideology crops up that's contrary to whatever goals the countries of the world have decided to pursue, so they just make that opinion illegal and that's the end of it. And then I'm like: "that's not how that works in most of the world". In North Korea that might work, and maybe in China, but not anywhere with reasonably well-established human rights. It was also interesting how China was always saving the day. That's sort of expected of any author to make their own country the heroes, but I couldn't help but wonder if that's really what he wanted to write, or if writing a story that could be construed as a criticism of modern China would get him in trouble in some ways. On the other hand, a big early part of the first book was about how awful the cultural revolution was. Is it considered politically acceptable these days in China to acknowledge the past failings of communist government, even if criticizing the current policies often is not?
- yongjik 6y ago
  I don't think the trilogy portrayed modern (21st century) China with much positivity, or in fact much thought at all. Most political interactions (other than flashbacks to the Cultural Revolution era) are happening in an alternate universe, so that the author can avoid making unnecessary political remarks - just like Captain America never mentions Bush or Obama, even though he's fighting for America against Nazis.
- pasabagi 6y ago
  The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution - I think you get much less scrutiny for criticising than celebrating this part of Mao's legacy - I know of one instance where somebody was arrested for making a big-character poster with 'the cultural revolution was good', for instance.
  - 6y ago

lq313c 6y ago

One should be able to enjoy the works of another based on the work's own merits, separate from the creator's political or personal beliefs. I can enjoy H.P. Lovecraft's stories, despite the author being an abject racist; or like Ford cars, despite Henry Ford's antisemitism and admiration for Hitler. If we would shun all the works of another because we disagree on politics, the world would be a small and boring place indeed.

_carbyau_ 6y ago

Wow. I haven't even read 3bp but it surprises me that even a significant amount of praise/charity for the CCP is an issue. There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. When I do read it, I expect this will hit the same filter.

cambalache 6y ago
"Do what I say not what I do" is a universal mantra, very common of course here in HN.
webmaven 6y ago
> There is so much glorification of the US Government in so many Hollywood movies it has simply become a thing to filter out. There is almost as much vilification of the USG as there is glorification. For example, a stereotypical USG Agent Gone Rogue character can just as easily be the hero as the villain in a Hollywood blockbuster (with the rest of the agency, or at least it's leadership, serving as the opposing villain or hero as needed). I don't know enough about Chinese cinema to say for certain whether the equivalent is true in that context, but the superficial impression I have is that it is not.
- free_rms 6y ago
  In the book we're discussing, the Cultural Revolution is presented as a catastrophe where the heroes are well-meaning scientists who's neutral observations of nature are twisted into being counter-revolutionary. The book covers the Cultural Revolution like US films cover Vietnam: not favorably.

free_rms 6y ago

I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? Liu is Chinese just like most of HN are American so there will be different default stances on international politics, but the books did not read as jingoistic to me.

kbenson 6y ago
> I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of survival if you sacrifice all values to do so? That always seemed like a trite argument of those who want to justify their own behavior, and is a cop out in a story. The point of survival is that values change, and can return, but survival is absolute. You fight until there is no other option, then you surrender with the hope that hat you can work towards that goal again in the future. Similarly, the correct choice between slavery and death is slavery, as slavery contains the chance of freedom but death does not. That's not to say the correct choice between slavery and a chance of death is the same thing. But people like to speak in absolutes without this nuance in a way that leads to interesting thought patterns in others that hear it and parrot it.
- free_rms 6y ago
  I don't know if you read the books but there are some pretty severe consequences.
  - kbenson 6y ago
    Oh, I've read the first two, I was responding to that statement as it's usually applied in conversation or argument. The discussion and exploration of it is worthwhile. It's common use as a "call to arms" less so.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      The third book is good, almost as good as the second imo. Manages to become completely insane while still feeling believable at each step.

PradeetPatel 6y ago

Some may call it self preservation, I would consider it to be a good business move. It is also possible that he was pressured by his publisher to include the postscript to alleviate potential pressure from governmental stakeholders. It has been established that the author's own political views, no matter how incorrect, will have an impact on the story. This is evident in 3BP.

alpineidyll3 6y ago
With his current profile if he wished to renounce his support and seek asylum, he could. It would be a stinging betrayal for the party, more effective than any protest that was ever waged for HK... And it wouldn't endanger him or his fortune.
- actuator 6y ago
  He might be happy and content there. Also, leaving your homeland is a tough decision and he would lose his home audience potentially if he is vocal.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- da_big_ghey 6y ago
  It is well known that the CCP holds one's family hostage in cases when one goes abroad, as collateral against one's return: https://www.businessinsider.com/liu-changming-china-holds-officials-family-hostage-to-force-return-2018-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/liu-changming-china-holds-of... https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-deals-with-dissent-threats-family-arrests-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-deals-with-dissent... It is an open secret that this is the case for many students who come to American universities, and this is often how they coerce them into sending back IP and trade secrets. I would shudder to imagine what might befall the family of a prominent defector that so humiliated the party.
  - glenstein 6y ago

jnsaff2 6y ago

I hope you have read the sequels. The Dark Forest is I believe the most mind-expanding of them and Deaths End goes pretty wild but is still very interesting. I had the luxury of finding out about the problematic CCP leanings after finishing them all. But can’t bring myself to pick up anything other by him.

remolacha 6y ago

Communist party/politics aside, I agree that the beginning of the book had seriously next-level sci-fi creativity, but the last third of the book really rushed the plot. 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character development. Still, great material overall. Can't wait to see an eventual 3bp movie.

actuator 6y ago
> 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character development. Maybe it was because of my non familiarity with Chinese names or lack of detail to a lot of characters, that I had to constantly look back to see names if they appeared again after a while. I am not sure why this happened as I have read Manga or Manhwa in the past and have been able to hold a lot more characters in memory.
- webmaven 6y ago
  > Maybe it was because of my non familiarity with Chinese names or lack of detail to a lot of characters, that I had to constantly look back to see names if they appeared again after a while. I am not sure why this happened as I have read Manga or Manhwa in the past and have been able to hold a lot more characters in memory. I had a similar problem, but don't think it was a lack of character details, but rather that the dialog seems rather undifferentiated. What distinguished one character from another was only what they say, and almost never how they say it.
- alpineidyll3 6y ago
  I found the number of interesting characters with good realization impressive. Also characters of both genders were almost equally well realized. It just too bad he couldn't bring meaningful resolutions to 90% of them.
tmp538394722 6y ago
The huge cast of characters was definitely a challenge for me as well. But I wonder sometimes if it’s more a cultural difference than simply some kind of “failure” on the authors part. Have you seen those videos where old communist leaders gave speeches, they declare some good news, some achievement, and the crowd claps and cheers, and so does the leader. Watch Stalin, watch Mao. To a westerner it looks like they are clapping for themself - taking credit for the victory. But in communism, the results are not that of a “brilliant leader”, but rather the results of history unfolding. They aren’t clapping for themselves, but for society’s progression. I think, similarly in this way, 3bp doesn’t have the “hero narrative” that western authors favor, because the protagonist of 3bp is society as a whole, while the characters themselves are just minor witnesses.

varjag 6y ago

Any good aspiring-communist society book has to have either a Communist Youth or a Commissar character. It's the canon.

elihu 6y ago

Yeah, it also seemed a bit jarring to me how modern China is portrayed so positively in the trilogy. Perhaps this is also how books by Americans are seen in China? One could make a case that, say, Tom Clancy novels are pro-American cold war propaganda. (That's not really my view, but I could understand why someone, especially a reader from one of our cold-war adversaries, might think that.) I think the most jarring bits are plot points where some ideology crops up that's contrary to whatever goals the countries of the world have decided to pursue, so they just make that opinion illegal and that's the end of it. And then I'm like: "that's not how that works in most of the world". In North Korea that might work, and maybe in China, but not anywhere with reasonably well-established human rights. It was also interesting how China was always saving the day. That's sort of expected of any author to make their own country the heroes, but I couldn't help but wonder if that's really what he wanted to write, or if writing a story that could be construed as a criticism of modern China would get him in trouble in some ways. On the other hand, a big early part of the first book was about how awful the cultural revolution was. Is it considered politically acceptable these days in China to acknowledge the past failings of communist government, even if criticizing the current policies often is not?

yongjik 6y ago
I don't think the trilogy portrayed modern (21st century) China with much positivity, or in fact much thought at all. Most political interactions (other than flashbacks to the Cultural Revolution era) are happening in an alternate universe, so that the author can avoid making unnecessary political remarks - just like Captain America never mentions Bush or Obama, even though he's fighting for America against Nazis.
pasabagi 6y ago
The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the excesses of the cultural revolution - I think you get much less scrutiny for criticising than celebrating this part of Mao's legacy - I know of one instance where somebody was arrested for making a big-character poster with 'the cultural revolution was good', for instance.
- 6y ago