9 ms·

Governments are violent monopolistic organisations, and lobbying is a natural reaction to this. No morality or value creation is to be found anywhere near it.

xvedejas 6y ago
Some governments manage to be less violent than others. I'm not sure that that affects the degree to which lobbying works.
- jeofken 6y ago
  The same is true for abusive parents or partners - some just spank. Lobbying in that metaphor is the kid in the family with the most clout convincing the parent they should spank another sibling instead
brnt 6y ago
Democratic goverment is the best way the people have at organising their society. Devolving power to organisations that by their nature represent fewer than the whole population and aren't under any form of democratic control are nowhere near what we should want. Unless you're a rich billionaire who can afford lobbyists of course.
- jeofken 6y ago
  > Democratic goverment is the best way the people have at organising their society. Is this a fact? States are monopolistic armed organisations, and democratic states mean that who to point this violent threat at is determined by popular vote - the mob decides. My claim is that this does not remove the moral evil of using violent threat to get your will. Re: your last paragraph: lobbying exists just because of the state - if you can convince those closest to the trigger who to use force against and who to leave alone, you can succeed at your competitors cost. It is a natural reaction to lobby, like a child of a violent family may convince the parent to spank a sibling instead
  - emteycz 6y ago
    > Democratic goverment is the best way the people have at organising their society. It's not a fact, but it's parroted so often that people take it as one. Disagreeing with it immediately makes you a fascist. Sadly. I can't understand how voting about other people is supposed to be freedom, but somehow this question is also fascist.
    - brnt 6y ago
      Those that disagree usually argue for a far less democratic way to influence what goes on. What's an improvement on representative democracy?
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Not influencing what is going on this way - not everything has to be standard and decided by a majority, multiple options can be done at the same time. Second thing is reducing the size of government - not everything has to be the same for literally millions of people and thousands of square kilometers, and especially not for hundreds of millions of people and entire continents. Some things shouldn't ever be voted about.
        brnt 6y ago
        Subsidiarity of responsibility/scope between layers of government seems orthogonal to the way we (s)elect people in charge. > Some things shouldn't ever be voted about. In many democracies, certain things are codified into constitutions and are hard to change, and typically not frequently, if ever, voted on. Is that what you mean?
        emteycz 6y ago
        Democracy is not just the way we s/elect people in charge, it's also the idea of having people in charge and having a single way of life for millions. The country where I live (Czechia) was praised for having one of the strongest constitutions ever written. Now its been destroyed by a populist government for a decade, with the destruction rate multiplied with the pandemic which this government is unable to do anything about while constantly trying to shift money into their pockets. Thanks to the pandemic they can do anything regardless of the constitution or law, but even before the pandemic we found out the constitution is worthless if there isn't anyone with the power to protect it, and that any wording (specific or broad, doesn't matter) will bend to the will of the judge. If constitution is what you rely on you're in for a bad ride, you need ordinary people with guns ready to defend it. I will not trust a constitution to protect me or my property ever again.

xvedejas 6y ago

Some governments manage to be less violent than others. I'm not sure that that affects the degree to which lobbying works.

jeofken 6y ago
The same is true for abusive parents or partners - some just spank. Lobbying in that metaphor is the kid in the family with the most clout convincing the parent they should spank another sibling instead

brnt 6y ago

Democratic goverment is the best way the people have at organising their society. Devolving power to organisations that by their nature represent fewer than the whole population and aren't under any form of democratic control are nowhere near what we should want. Unless you're a rich billionaire who can afford lobbyists of course.

jeofken 6y ago
> Democratic goverment is the best way the people have at organising their society. Is this a fact? States are monopolistic armed organisations, and democratic states mean that who to point this violent threat at is determined by popular vote - the mob decides. My claim is that this does not remove the moral evil of using violent threat to get your will. Re: your last paragraph: lobbying exists just because of the state - if you can convince those closest to the trigger who to use force against and who to leave alone, you can succeed at your competitors cost. It is a natural reaction to lobby, like a child of a violent family may convince the parent to spank a sibling instead
- emteycz 6y ago
  > Democratic goverment is the best way the people have at organising their society. It's not a fact, but it's parroted so often that people take it as one. Disagreeing with it immediately makes you a fascist. Sadly. I can't understand how voting about other people is supposed to be freedom, but somehow this question is also fascist.
  - brnt 6y ago
    Those that disagree usually argue for a far less democratic way to influence what goes on. What's an improvement on representative democracy?
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Not influencing what is going on this way - not everything has to be standard and decided by a majority, multiple options can be done at the same time. Second thing is reducing the size of government - not everything has to be the same for literally millions of people and thousands of square kilometers, and especially not for hundreds of millions of people and entire continents. Some things shouldn't ever be voted about.
      - brnt 6y ago
        Subsidiarity of responsibility/scope between layers of government seems orthogonal to the way we (s)elect people in charge. > Some things shouldn't ever be voted about. In many democracies, certain things are codified into constitutions and are hard to change, and typically not frequently, if ever, voted on. Is that what you mean?
        emteycz 6y ago
        Democracy is not just the way we s/elect people in charge, it's also the idea of having people in charge and having a single way of life for millions. The country where I live (Czechia) was praised for having one of the strongest constitutions ever written. Now its been destroyed by a populist government for a decade, with the destruction rate multiplied with the pandemic which this government is unable to do anything about while constantly trying to shift money into their pockets. Thanks to the pandemic they can do anything regardless of the constitution or law, but even before the pandemic we found out the constitution is worthless if there isn't anyone with the power to protect it, and that any wording (specific or broad, doesn't matter) will bend to the will of the judge. If constitution is what you rely on you're in for a bad ride, you need ordinary people with guns ready to defend it. I will not trust a constitution to protect me or my property ever again.