7 ms·

Okay so how do you come to the EU when you from Africa? Or if you are from the far east? Please enlighten me. Oh wait either you go through turkey where we d

by lampe3 6y ago

Okay so how do you come to the EU when you from Africa? Or if you are from the far east? Please enlighten me. Oh wait either you go through turkey where we don't even know whats happening with these people or you get pushed back on the Mediterranean sea by frontex. yeah sounds super lax to me...

c06n 6y ago
I had a colleague from Cameroon (in Germany). He applied for a study visa, studied here, applied for a work visa, worked here, applied for German citizenship, got it. Same for people from Egypt and Nigeria I have met. People who claim there are not legal ways are ignorant or deceptive.
LunaSea 6y ago
You apply for a visa like every other country in the world.
- lampe3 6y ago
  Try that in a country where there is no real goverment anymore or you are on the wrong side of history or you just have the wrong religion or you don't have enough money to buy a visa because you need to first bribe a lot of people or your country is a warzone and there is no gov anymore. Yes you can apply for a visa but try that without any papers... Or if someone gangs have taken away your passport and other ID documents... Or someone comes to your home and threatens you that if you don't fight for them they will kill your family... yeah apply for a visa... which can take years... <irony> good comment! </irony>
  - blub 6y ago
    AFAIK the EU isn't neighboring any countries without governments or which are a war zone. So in theory, there should be very very few people seeking refugee status in the EU - the odd individuals persecuted for their political beliefs or religion. There's a process for that which was working quite fine, before being subverted by economic migrants trying to gain refugee status, or actual refugees avoiding safe countries along the way and applying in Europe. So ironically exactly those persecuted people may have to wait much longer to clarify their status. The fact that someone lost their papers or had them stolen is their problem. The EU isn't responsible for solving everyone's problem, in fact the political conflicts within the EU are mainly caused by EU countries pretending that they can.
  - zokier 6y ago
    Seeking asylum and immigration are two very different processes.
    - niczem 6y ago
      ... no sh*t sherlock?! To legally claim asylum in a schengen state which has no external border to non-schengen states you literally have to fall out of the sky or travel into the country on a tourist visa. Guess what happens in the moment a crisis breaks out like it happened in Syria? Yes right, all the wealthy northern european states do not give out tourist visas anymore.
      - vetinari 6y ago
        > To legally claim asylum in a schengen state which has no external border to non-schengen states you literally have to... Again, seeking asylum and immigration are two very different processes. When seeking asylum, you don't get to pick the countries; first safe is it.
      - zokier 6y ago
        But the sub-thread was about immigration policies, not about refugee policies. It is perfectly consistent to have simultaneously lax immigration policy and harsh refugee policy (or vice versa).
      - LunaSea 6y ago
        They aren't tourists to that seems to make sense. They can however apply for refugee status in the closest refugee camp outside of Syria, usually in Turkey.
        niczem 6y ago
        But there is also no possibility to ask for asylum in an embessy. Asylum is a right given by the constitution in germany and its not possible to fullfill this right because of the european border politics. Sure you can go to turkey - where you have no chance to legalize your status in mid- or long term. Where your children are not allowed to go to school.
  - mrweasel 6y ago
    There's a huge difference between refugees, which is what you'd be if your country is indeed a war zone. The EU doesn't deal well with refugees, but let's face it, many refugees also don't want to be granted asylum in Romania, they want to do to France or Germany. Part of the problem is that refugees and migrants mixes at the borders. EU is also terrible at managing refugees, mostly due to not being able to agree to distribute the refuges equally across the member states. Of cause that would provoke some people, because apparently Slovakia or Bulgaria isn't better than living in a war zone, but Sweden and Germany is.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Yes, living in Slovakia can be as bad as living in a refugee camp even for Slovak citizens. It's rather obvious that people want to have better life, not the same they had - especially given Slovakian attitude towards non-white people.
      - vetinari 6y ago
        So what do you know about Slovakian attitude towards non-white people?
        emteycz 6y ago
        Mostly everything - I live in the region. Slovakian people, similarly to Czech people (my own birthplace) are very unhappy about non-white people. Many of them are openly racist, thankfully that's slowly improving, but I still wouldn't want to be non-white here. It's better in the capital cities but even there you'll get weird looks and verbal attacks. Physical attacks are not unheard of outside the capitals.
        vetinari 6y ago
        I've spend significant time in this region; I have a family there. There is a large Vietnamese community in these countries, well, since the Vietnam War. They are obviously non-white and they are not discriminated in any way. Do you know why? Because they are working hard, they encourage their kids to get good education, they don't abuse the social system and they don't get involved in petty crime. These things result in the majority population not having predominantly negative experience with them. Then there the Roma minority, which behaves in exact opposite way. This is not problem only in Czechia and Slovakia; the experience is same in the entire Eastern and South Europe, for exactly the same reason. So obviously it is not race problem. It is behavioral problem, other people not liking being abused and being careful about that. If you want to solve it, start on your end.
- oytis 6y ago
  There are no visas for refugees. Most of Europe indeed has very progressive law regarding the asylum, but very hypocritical enforcement practice - you can get a refuge or at least a permission to stay for a prolonged time once you get across the border (even "illegally"), but a lot of people are going to try to stop you from doing that. So basically what Frontex does is protecting Europe from legal obligations that Europe voluntary committed to. What's even more dangerous, it's not under control of any single European government, so control over it by human rights activists and through political means is complicated.
  - blub 6y ago
    The people coming in aren't playing fair: many are not refugees and are transiting safe countries (including EU countries) to apply for asylum in their favorite country. It's understandable that they're desperate, but the EU doesn't have to accept that. Of course there's a lot of people trying to stop them, because what those migrants are doing is not according to the spirit of the asylum laws and it's threatening to seriously harm the social harmony of the countries receiving them. A significant number of EU citizens do not want migration from outside of the EU, unless the EU benefits (highly-educated specialists, etc) and those people integrate into their host countries. This conflict has been smouldering within Western Europe in particular for many years and I have the feeling that tensions have been rising strongly in the past years.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    As a refugee, you don't get to shop for a country where you want to immigrate. You get the asylum in the first safe one, and only until the danger is present. While you are there, you can of course ask different countries to grant you immigration visa, but then you don't do that as refugee anymore, since you have been already granted protection in the first safe country. So no, Frontex is not protecting Europe from legal obligations; it is protecting Europe from abusing and misrepresenting them by activists.
liaukovv 6y ago
Is africans coming to europe some sort of human right owed to them by europeans?
- Bouncingsoul1 6y ago
  Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."
  - LunaSea 6y ago
    They do have a right to "seek" they don't have a right to live in the country in question.
  - liaukovv 6y ago
    Do they get to pick and choose where to flee? This is way too broad to be useful
  - blub 6y ago
    The critical point is that people are traversing several countries or seas to apply for asylum in the EU. This is obviously not following the spirit of the applicable laws which were designed for avoiding humanitarian tragedies in neighboring countries. Many aren't even persecuted, just poor, lacking education and desperate.
tasogare 6y ago
> Okay so how do you come to the EU when you from Africa? Go to an EU country ambassy and ask a visa like anyone. If rejected, get the hint and don’t come.
- niczem 6y ago
  ... that also worked out pretty well in the 1930s for all the jewish people trying to flee europe.

by lampe3 6y ago

c06n 6y ago

I had a colleague from Cameroon (in Germany). He applied for a study visa, studied here, applied for a work visa, worked here, applied for German citizenship, got it. Same for people from Egypt and Nigeria I have met. People who claim there are not legal ways are ignorant or deceptive.

LunaSea 6y ago

You apply for a visa like every other country in the world.

lampe3 6y ago
Try that in a country where there is no real goverment anymore or you are on the wrong side of history or you just have the wrong religion or you don't have enough money to buy a visa because you need to first bribe a lot of people or your country is a warzone and there is no gov anymore. Yes you can apply for a visa but try that without any papers... Or if someone gangs have taken away your passport and other ID documents... Or someone comes to your home and threatens you that if you don't fight for them they will kill your family... yeah apply for a visa... which can take years... <irony> good comment! </irony>
- blub 6y ago
  AFAIK the EU isn't neighboring any countries without governments or which are a war zone. So in theory, there should be very very few people seeking refugee status in the EU - the odd individuals persecuted for their political beliefs or religion. There's a process for that which was working quite fine, before being subverted by economic migrants trying to gain refugee status, or actual refugees avoiding safe countries along the way and applying in Europe. So ironically exactly those persecuted people may have to wait much longer to clarify their status. The fact that someone lost their papers or had them stolen is their problem. The EU isn't responsible for solving everyone's problem, in fact the political conflicts within the EU are mainly caused by EU countries pretending that they can.
- zokier 6y ago
  Seeking asylum and immigration are two very different processes.
  - niczem 6y ago
    ... no sh*t sherlock?! To legally claim asylum in a schengen state which has no external border to non-schengen states you literally have to fall out of the sky or travel into the country on a tourist visa. Guess what happens in the moment a crisis breaks out like it happened in Syria? Yes right, all the wealthy northern european states do not give out tourist visas anymore.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      > To legally claim asylum in a schengen state which has no external border to non-schengen states you literally have to... Again, seeking asylum and immigration are two very different processes. When seeking asylum, you don't get to pick the countries; first safe is it.
    - zokier 6y ago
      But the sub-thread was about immigration policies, not about refugee policies. It is perfectly consistent to have simultaneously lax immigration policy and harsh refugee policy (or vice versa).
    - LunaSea 6y ago
      They aren't tourists to that seems to make sense. They can however apply for refugee status in the closest refugee camp outside of Syria, usually in Turkey.
      - niczem 6y ago
        But there is also no possibility to ask for asylum in an embessy. Asylum is a right given by the constitution in germany and its not possible to fullfill this right because of the european border politics. Sure you can go to turkey - where you have no chance to legalize your status in mid- or long term. Where your children are not allowed to go to school.
- mrweasel 6y ago
  There's a huge difference between refugees, which is what you'd be if your country is indeed a war zone. The EU doesn't deal well with refugees, but let's face it, many refugees also don't want to be granted asylum in Romania, they want to do to France or Germany. Part of the problem is that refugees and migrants mixes at the borders. EU is also terrible at managing refugees, mostly due to not being able to agree to distribute the refuges equally across the member states. Of cause that would provoke some people, because apparently Slovakia or Bulgaria isn't better than living in a war zone, but Sweden and Germany is.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Yes, living in Slovakia can be as bad as living in a refugee camp even for Slovak citizens. It's rather obvious that people want to have better life, not the same they had - especially given Slovakian attitude towards non-white people.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      So what do you know about Slovakian attitude towards non-white people?
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Mostly everything - I live in the region. Slovakian people, similarly to Czech people (my own birthplace) are very unhappy about non-white people. Many of them are openly racist, thankfully that's slowly improving, but I still wouldn't want to be non-white here. It's better in the capital cities but even there you'll get weird looks and verbal attacks. Physical attacks are not unheard of outside the capitals.
        vetinari 6y ago
        I've spend significant time in this region; I have a family there. There is a large Vietnamese community in these countries, well, since the Vietnam War. They are obviously non-white and they are not discriminated in any way. Do you know why? Because they are working hard, they encourage their kids to get good education, they don't abuse the social system and they don't get involved in petty crime. These things result in the majority population not having predominantly negative experience with them. Then there the Roma minority, which behaves in exact opposite way. This is not problem only in Czechia and Slovakia; the experience is same in the entire Eastern and South Europe, for exactly the same reason. So obviously it is not race problem. It is behavioral problem, other people not liking being abused and being careful about that. If you want to solve it, start on your end.
oytis 6y ago
There are no visas for refugees. Most of Europe indeed has very progressive law regarding the asylum, but very hypocritical enforcement practice - you can get a refuge or at least a permission to stay for a prolonged time once you get across the border (even "illegally"), but a lot of people are going to try to stop you from doing that. So basically what Frontex does is protecting Europe from legal obligations that Europe voluntary committed to. What's even more dangerous, it's not under control of any single European government, so control over it by human rights activists and through political means is complicated.
- blub 6y ago
  The people coming in aren't playing fair: many are not refugees and are transiting safe countries (including EU countries) to apply for asylum in their favorite country. It's understandable that they're desperate, but the EU doesn't have to accept that. Of course there's a lot of people trying to stop them, because what those migrants are doing is not according to the spirit of the asylum laws and it's threatening to seriously harm the social harmony of the countries receiving them. A significant number of EU citizens do not want migration from outside of the EU, unless the EU benefits (highly-educated specialists, etc) and those people integrate into their host countries. This conflict has been smouldering within Western Europe in particular for many years and I have the feeling that tensions have been rising strongly in the past years.
- vetinari 6y ago
  As a refugee, you don't get to shop for a country where you want to immigrate. You get the asylum in the first safe one, and only until the danger is present. While you are there, you can of course ask different countries to grant you immigration visa, but then you don't do that as refugee anymore, since you have been already granted protection in the first safe country. So no, Frontex is not protecting Europe from legal obligations; it is protecting Europe from abusing and misrepresenting them by activists.

liaukovv 6y ago

Is africans coming to europe some sort of human right owed to them by europeans?

Bouncingsoul1 6y ago
Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."
- LunaSea 6y ago
  They do have a right to "seek" they don't have a right to live in the country in question.
- liaukovv 6y ago
  Do they get to pick and choose where to flee? This is way too broad to be useful
- blub 6y ago
  The critical point is that people are traversing several countries or seas to apply for asylum in the EU. This is obviously not following the spirit of the applicable laws which were designed for avoiding humanitarian tragedies in neighboring countries. Many aren't even persecuted, just poor, lacking education and desperate.

tasogare 6y ago

> Okay so how do you come to the EU when you from Africa? Go to an EU country ambassy and ask a visa like anyone. If rejected, get the hint and don’t come.

niczem 6y ago
... that also worked out pretty well in the 1930s for all the jewish people trying to flee europe.