7 ms·

The EU has a quite reasonable (and rather lax) immigration policy, assuming that people come to the EU legally or move between EU countries. People that get sm

by blub 6y ago

The EU has a quite reasonable (and rather lax) immigration policy, assuming that people come to the EU legally or move between EU countries. People that get smuggled across the Mediterranean on a dinghy are a very special case and bear the main responsibility for their fates.

earthboundkid 6y ago
You just said in a public location and with no sense of shame that an appropriate consequence for trying to escape your country is drowning. During the years of communism, you had to be a pretty heartless Stalinist to say that those shot by border guards “bear the main responsibility”. It’s a very coarse and degrading thing to say, and I don’t see how anyone can say it without an ideology that denigrates human beings in their minds. If you think people should be sent back once they cross, fine, whatever. But you’re advocating something else, and it’s monstrous precisely because it’s seemingly banal.
- blub 6y ago
  Nobody's shooting anyone or advocating that people should drown, tone down the drama. If someone is paying to get smuggled across the sea, there's a strong chance they will drown. That's reality.
krylon 6y ago
As TFA points out, Frontex routinely and systematically ignores/breaks both European and international law. We do not deny medical treatment to people that get in car accidents, even if they caused the accidents themselves by driving recklessly. If the EU wants to keep migrants from Africa out, fine, but letting hundreds of people drown each year in order so send a message is not acceptable, ethically or legally.
- blub 6y ago
  Maybe I missed something because I read with JS turned off, but in the article I read, Frontex is accused of meeting with lobbyists. Certainly fishy and morally dubious, but hardly unusual for the EU or for Germany for that matter. What laws are they systematically breaking and how is that connected to people drowning? For the record the EU has an obligation to look into asylum claims made in the EU and reject or accept them as applicable. On the other hand, it turns out many are approved even if not valid and the EU is barely able to deport anyone, illegal migrant or not. Basically whoever gets into the EU has a good chance to stay there, even if they don't have that right, so it's no wonder the EU is trying to deter more people from coming because this is putting immense stress especially on Western European societies and causing conflicts. EU countries (and I think all countries) have a separate obligation to rescue people in distress at sea. The fact that someone is drowning in the middle of the Mediterranean is not a concern of the EU, as crass as that may sound - one rescues whoever is in trouble near one's ship. Still the EU is going above and beyond and is also sponsoring rescue missions that fish people out of the sea. Obviously not everyone makes it.
  - leipert 6y ago
    Frontex is accused of doing pushbacks, meaning the large boats create waves that push the migrant boats back. In the linked Video Segment they had a German police offer testifying to that. The concern with Frontex investing into planes and drones rather than boats is seen as a strategy to control the border without needing to help the migrants. One other point that is mentioned is the „coast guard“ of Libya which Frontex allegedly cooperates with. That coast guard is accused of either not responding, or if they respond to torture and rape rescued people. One final problem, that even if one were to have proof of those atrocities, it is really hard to sue Frontex for misconduct, because you have to sue them to what’s equivalent of the EUs Supreme Court.
    - reitanqild 6y ago
      The problem is, ironically, that the second best way to prevent migrants from drowning in the Mediterranean is to stop them from crossing. The first would be to set up ships to help them cross, which obviously isn't going to happen. So now smugglers and human traffickers have had field days (and years) smuggling people into Europe. All at an extreme cost: migrants are paying through their noses, getting abused along the route and they are drowning in the Mediterranean. All so Europeans can feel good about helping them instead of starting a massive campaign to inform everyone that: - immigrants will be flown right back - money saved will be used to help them where they re (ha ha, not going to happen with the politicians we vote for, but this is what I wish they would do) Let me be clear: I want to help those people. I'll happily see my taxes raised almost as much as I can bear to see it happen. We don't talk much about religion here but since this account isn't linked to my identity I'll admit my motives here: I believe in an afterlife, "heaven" to be more precise, and I believe that enjoying life here while not caring about others is a rather effective way to make myself ineligible for that. However moving everyone to Europe isn't sustainable way of fixing everyones problem, so for now I try to cut my luxuries and spend them on things that can help: - giving people in developing countries work - supporting Amnesty International (yes, I'm conflicted about this as they support the migration scam but I love their work in other areas) - spreading the gospel so more people might start to think like I outline above, hopefully creating a positive feedback loop.
    - 6y ago
lampe3 6y ago
Okay so how do you come to the EU when you from Africa? Or if you are from the far east? Please enlighten me. Oh wait either you go through turkey where we don't even know whats happening with these people or you get pushed back on the Mediterranean sea by frontex. yeah sounds super lax to me...
- c06n 6y ago
  I had a colleague from Cameroon (in Germany). He applied for a study visa, studied here, applied for a work visa, worked here, applied for German citizenship, got it. Same for people from Egypt and Nigeria I have met. People who claim there are not legal ways are ignorant or deceptive.
- LunaSea 6y ago
  You apply for a visa like every other country in the world.
  - lampe3 6y ago
    Try that in a country where there is no real goverment anymore or you are on the wrong side of history or you just have the wrong religion or you don't have enough money to buy a visa because you need to first bribe a lot of people or your country is a warzone and there is no gov anymore. Yes you can apply for a visa but try that without any papers... Or if someone gangs have taken away your passport and other ID documents... Or someone comes to your home and threatens you that if you don't fight for them they will kill your family... yeah apply for a visa... which can take years... <irony> good comment! </irony>
    - blub 6y ago
      AFAIK the EU isn't neighboring any countries without governments or which are a war zone. So in theory, there should be very very few people seeking refugee status in the EU - the odd individuals persecuted for their political beliefs or religion. There's a process for that which was working quite fine, before being subverted by economic migrants trying to gain refugee status, or actual refugees avoiding safe countries along the way and applying in Europe. So ironically exactly those persecuted people may have to wait much longer to clarify their status. The fact that someone lost their papers or had them stolen is their problem. The EU isn't responsible for solving everyone's problem, in fact the political conflicts within the EU are mainly caused by EU countries pretending that they can.

by blub 6y ago

earthboundkid 6y ago

You just said in a public location and with no sense of shame that an appropriate consequence for trying to escape your country is drowning. During the years of communism, you had to be a pretty heartless Stalinist to say that those shot by border guards “bear the main responsibility”. It’s a very coarse and degrading thing to say, and I don’t see how anyone can say it without an ideology that denigrates human beings in their minds. If you think people should be sent back once they cross, fine, whatever. But you’re advocating something else, and it’s monstrous precisely because it’s seemingly banal.

blub 6y ago
Nobody's shooting anyone or advocating that people should drown, tone down the drama. If someone is paying to get smuggled across the sea, there's a strong chance they will drown. That's reality.

krylon 6y ago

As TFA points out, Frontex routinely and systematically ignores/breaks both European and international law. We do not deny medical treatment to people that get in car accidents, even if they caused the accidents themselves by driving recklessly. If the EU wants to keep migrants from Africa out, fine, but letting hundreds of people drown each year in order so send a message is not acceptable, ethically or legally.

blub 6y ago
Maybe I missed something because I read with JS turned off, but in the article I read, Frontex is accused of meeting with lobbyists. Certainly fishy and morally dubious, but hardly unusual for the EU or for Germany for that matter. What laws are they systematically breaking and how is that connected to people drowning? For the record the EU has an obligation to look into asylum claims made in the EU and reject or accept them as applicable. On the other hand, it turns out many are approved even if not valid and the EU is barely able to deport anyone, illegal migrant or not. Basically whoever gets into the EU has a good chance to stay there, even if they don't have that right, so it's no wonder the EU is trying to deter more people from coming because this is putting immense stress especially on Western European societies and causing conflicts. EU countries (and I think all countries) have a separate obligation to rescue people in distress at sea. The fact that someone is drowning in the middle of the Mediterranean is not a concern of the EU, as crass as that may sound - one rescues whoever is in trouble near one's ship. Still the EU is going above and beyond and is also sponsoring rescue missions that fish people out of the sea. Obviously not everyone makes it.
- leipert 6y ago
  Frontex is accused of doing pushbacks, meaning the large boats create waves that push the migrant boats back. In the linked Video Segment they had a German police offer testifying to that. The concern with Frontex investing into planes and drones rather than boats is seen as a strategy to control the border without needing to help the migrants. One other point that is mentioned is the „coast guard“ of Libya which Frontex allegedly cooperates with. That coast guard is accused of either not responding, or if they respond to torture and rape rescued people. One final problem, that even if one were to have proof of those atrocities, it is really hard to sue Frontex for misconduct, because you have to sue them to what’s equivalent of the EUs Supreme Court.
  - reitanqild 6y ago
    The problem is, ironically, that the second best way to prevent migrants from drowning in the Mediterranean is to stop them from crossing. The first would be to set up ships to help them cross, which obviously isn't going to happen. So now smugglers and human traffickers have had field days (and years) smuggling people into Europe. All at an extreme cost: migrants are paying through their noses, getting abused along the route and they are drowning in the Mediterranean. All so Europeans can feel good about helping them instead of starting a massive campaign to inform everyone that: - immigrants will be flown right back - money saved will be used to help them where they re (ha ha, not going to happen with the politicians we vote for, but this is what I wish they would do) Let me be clear: I want to help those people. I'll happily see my taxes raised almost as much as I can bear to see it happen. We don't talk much about religion here but since this account isn't linked to my identity I'll admit my motives here: I believe in an afterlife, "heaven" to be more precise, and I believe that enjoying life here while not caring about others is a rather effective way to make myself ineligible for that. However moving everyone to Europe isn't sustainable way of fixing everyones problem, so for now I try to cut my luxuries and spend them on things that can help: - giving people in developing countries work - supporting Amnesty International (yes, I'm conflicted about this as they support the migration scam but I love their work in other areas) - spreading the gospel so more people might start to think like I outline above, hopefully creating a positive feedback loop.
  - 6y ago

lampe3 6y ago

Okay so how do you come to the EU when you from Africa? Or if you are from the far east? Please enlighten me. Oh wait either you go through turkey where we don't even know whats happening with these people or you get pushed back on the Mediterranean sea by frontex. yeah sounds super lax to me...

c06n 6y ago
I had a colleague from Cameroon (in Germany). He applied for a study visa, studied here, applied for a work visa, worked here, applied for German citizenship, got it. Same for people from Egypt and Nigeria I have met. People who claim there are not legal ways are ignorant or deceptive.
LunaSea 6y ago
You apply for a visa like every other country in the world.
- lampe3 6y ago
  Try that in a country where there is no real goverment anymore or you are on the wrong side of history or you just have the wrong religion or you don't have enough money to buy a visa because you need to first bribe a lot of people or your country is a warzone and there is no gov anymore. Yes you can apply for a visa but try that without any papers... Or if someone gangs have taken away your passport and other ID documents... Or someone comes to your home and threatens you that if you don't fight for them they will kill your family... yeah apply for a visa... which can take years... <irony> good comment! </irony>
  - blub 6y ago
    AFAIK the EU isn't neighboring any countries without governments or which are a war zone. So in theory, there should be very very few people seeking refugee status in the EU - the odd individuals persecuted for their political beliefs or religion. There's a process for that which was working quite fine, before being subverted by economic migrants trying to gain refugee status, or actual refugees avoiding safe countries along the way and applying in Europe. So ironically exactly those persecuted people may have to wait much longer to clarify their status. The fact that someone lost their papers or had them stolen is their problem. The EU isn't responsible for solving everyone's problem, in fact the political conflicts within the EU are mainly caused by EU countries pretending that they can.