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> As a whole, H2 cars are also quite heavy. You literally require everything that is in an EV plus multiple extra subsystems that are incredibly complex and not

> As a whole, H2 cars are also quite heavy. You literally require everything that is in an EV plus multiple extra subsystems that are incredibly complex and not light by any means. Toyota Mirai 2 curb weight 1925 kg vs Tesla P100 curb weight 2241 kg. Both have the range of 500 to 507 km. But with a Mirai, given that the infra for filling up would exist, I’d spend 5 minutes filling up instead of 40 at a charging station. My math is okay. > more wind turbines everywhere (that people already hate) Yeah, I have dozens of those around. But you know what, more battery cars also need those so it’s not like we will be removing these soon.

nickik 6y ago
Look at how amazing and simply the Mirai 2 is: https://global.toyota/pages/news/images/2020/12/09/1200/005.jpg https://global.toyota/pages/news/images/2020/12/09/1200/005.... compared to: https://468y981o84o43v2wo2600a0gcj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Tesla-Skateboard-model-S-dualmotor-full.jpg https://468y981o84o43v2wo2600a0gcj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/w... And one of these cars is incredibly fast, the other is a not a performance car. I can't find good data on Mirai 2 but I think the S is a considerably bigger car. At least in comparison between the Mirai and the Model 3, the Model 3 is lighter. Of course, the reality is that batteries are getting lighter fast. > Yeah, I have dozens of those around. But you know what, more battery cars also need those so it’s not like we will be removing these soon. Again, the simply fact is fuel cells are considerably less efficient. Therefore you need more of them. https://img.drivemag.net/media/default/0001/96/Battery-electric-vehicles-vs-hydrogen-cars-9951-default-large.jpeg https://img.drivemag.net/media/default/0001/96/Battery-elect...
rasz 6y ago
Mirai 182 hp / 300Nm, seems to me they arent all that comparable.
- rad_gruchalski 6y ago
  If one needs 3s 0 to 62mph, sure. *Edit: also, compare the price. Mirai 2 will cost €63900. Basic Model S is €81200+ (even 10% tariffs are not getting it close) and P100d is what, €130k+? Nuts.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    You are comparing a hypothetically viable thing to an actual shipping, proven product. Without seeing the hydro network in place, seeing what retail prices are on hydrogen in volume, this is all supposition. While the Mirai is shipping, the fueling network is sparse and incapable of handling more than a few cars. Hundreds of thousands of EVs are out there in use. Fuel Cell cars are largely in prolonged beta while they figure out how to deliver fuel to a car that may never ship in volume.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> I’d spend 5 minutes filling up instead of 40 at a charging station. My math is okay. On most weeks, an EV owner spends zero hours on fuel ups since they plug in at home. They will also save significantly on power since it's much cheaper to distribute power to your home than to drive hydrogen all over the countryside.
- erik_seaberg 6y ago
  Charging speed is preventing a lot of people from operating EVs, because there is no charger where we park overnight.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    A fair enough statement. A bit of an electric divide. I'll put it a bit differently though. Setting aside environmental concerns, why would you buy a hydrogen car as opposed to a regular old gasoline car? Charging from home is a substantial benefit of EVs, performance is another. The Mirai is neither a particularly performant car, nor can you charge from home. Why would you switch to a car with a non-existent fuel network? Even once the network exists, why switch? Obviously, the environmental issues still exist, but right now that is the only reason you'd buy the Mirai instead of many less expensive non H2 options. The Tesla is interesting even without the environmental aspects.
    - Hypx 6y ago
      Eventually, you want the ownership experience of the gasoline car without the emissions. So much of the argument against them are short-term only. You have to assume there will be fuel cell cars that are fast and desirable as the technology improves.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        > Eventually, you want the ownership experience of the gasoline car without the emissions No I don't. I abhor getting into the car and realizing I need to stop at the gas station before I can drive to the trail head and ride with my friends. The idea of having a car that is ready to perform at maximum every time I step out the front door has a tremendous appeal. I hate gas stations, they stink, they are a waste of my time, often when I don't have time to spare. Maybe you want to replicate that experience. I'll pass.

nickik 6y ago

Look at how amazing and simply the Mirai 2 is: https://global.toyota/pages/news/images/2020/12/09/1200/005.jpg https://global.toyota/pages/news/images/2020/12/09/1200/005.... compared to: https://468y981o84o43v2wo2600a0gcj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Tesla-Skateboard-model-S-dualmotor-full.jpg https://468y981o84o43v2wo2600a0gcj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/w... And one of these cars is incredibly fast, the other is a not a performance car. I can't find good data on Mirai 2 but I think the S is a considerably bigger car. At least in comparison between the Mirai and the Model 3, the Model 3 is lighter. Of course, the reality is that batteries are getting lighter fast. > Yeah, I have dozens of those around. But you know what, more battery cars also need those so it’s not like we will be removing these soon. Again, the simply fact is fuel cells are considerably less efficient. Therefore you need more of them. https://img.drivemag.net/media/default/0001/96/Battery-electric-vehicles-vs-hydrogen-cars-9951-default-large.jpeg https://img.drivemag.net/media/default/0001/96/Battery-elect...

rasz 6y ago

Mirai 182 hp / 300Nm, seems to me they arent all that comparable.

rad_gruchalski 6y ago
If one needs 3s 0 to 62mph, sure. *Edit: also, compare the price. Mirai 2 will cost €63900. Basic Model S is €81200+ (even 10% tariffs are not getting it close) and P100d is what, €130k+? Nuts.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  You are comparing a hypothetically viable thing to an actual shipping, proven product. Without seeing the hydro network in place, seeing what retail prices are on hydrogen in volume, this is all supposition. While the Mirai is shipping, the fueling network is sparse and incapable of handling more than a few cars. Hundreds of thousands of EVs are out there in use. Fuel Cell cars are largely in prolonged beta while they figure out how to deliver fuel to a car that may never ship in volume.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> I’d spend 5 minutes filling up instead of 40 at a charging station. My math is okay. On most weeks, an EV owner spends zero hours on fuel ups since they plug in at home. They will also save significantly on power since it's much cheaper to distribute power to your home than to drive hydrogen all over the countryside.

erik_seaberg 6y ago
Charging speed is preventing a lot of people from operating EVs, because there is no charger where we park overnight.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  A fair enough statement. A bit of an electric divide. I'll put it a bit differently though. Setting aside environmental concerns, why would you buy a hydrogen car as opposed to a regular old gasoline car? Charging from home is a substantial benefit of EVs, performance is another. The Mirai is neither a particularly performant car, nor can you charge from home. Why would you switch to a car with a non-existent fuel network? Even once the network exists, why switch? Obviously, the environmental issues still exist, but right now that is the only reason you'd buy the Mirai instead of many less expensive non H2 options. The Tesla is interesting even without the environmental aspects.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    Eventually, you want the ownership experience of the gasoline car without the emissions. So much of the argument against them are short-term only. You have to assume there will be fuel cell cars that are fast and desirable as the technology improves.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > Eventually, you want the ownership experience of the gasoline car without the emissions No I don't. I abhor getting into the car and realizing I need to stop at the gas station before I can drive to the trail head and ride with my friends. The idea of having a car that is ready to perform at maximum every time I step out the front door has a tremendous appeal. I hate gas stations, they stink, they are a waste of my time, often when I don't have time to spare. Maybe you want to replicate that experience. I'll pass.