4 ms·

Exactly, such kind of thinking is unfortunately very much prevalent outside the big cities, even in developed nations like US and UK. I guess it is because the

by seaman1921 6y ago

Exactly, such kind of thinking is unfortunately very much prevalent outside the big cities, even in developed nations like US and UK. I guess it is because the folks outside big cities never had a chance to interact with the immigrants and see the value they add to the society, rather than seeing them as a threat. It is quite sad :(

corty 6y ago
I'm not so sure about that. E.g. there aren't any German truck drivers and trucks anymore, just companies and drivers from eastern europe, because it's cheaper. Similarly for lots of jobs in agriculture, construction and some industries like food processing. That's surprisingly not a problem because of unemployment in Germany as much as it is a social and legal problem: Eastern European workers abroad are underpaid (minimum wage circumvented), uninsured (social security dues circumvented), without appropriate workplace protections (truck drivers doing overtime, illegally having to sleep in their trucks for weeks on end, lax technical safety of the trucks), and draining the economy of their home countries of workers because factories that could have been nearby are in Germany instead. This begs the question: Would it have been as bad as Brexit to restrict worker movements a little more? I would suggest that such restrictions could have even had an overall benefit if done properly. It's just that Germany desperately wanted those cheap workers.
- bildung 6y ago
  Is that really true? Truck driver is a recognized trade in Germany, and the number of apprenticeships continues to rise: https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-berufskraftfahrer-auch-2018-mehr-ausbildungsvertraege-10725216.html https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-beruf...
  - corty 6y ago
    I did exaggerate and the problem is also not so simple: https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern tl;dr: Nobody wants to become a truck driver anymore, even with improving salaries. Higher qualifications and better working conditions might solve the problem in the future. In the meantime we still need drivers from eastern europe.
- detaro 6y ago
  With the 2004 expansion, Germany (among other states) pressured for restrictions and transitional agreements were made that allowed restricting movement of workers from the newly added countries for up to seven years. The UK was one of the few countries that did not do any of those restrictions, because it's government wanted direct access to cheap labor.
  - corty 6y ago
    That is true, but changed over time with the changing local political climate. Back in 2004 Angela Merkel was still strictly right-wing anti-immigration, later she drifted more and more left and pro-immigration.
    - detaro 6y ago
      2004 Merkel also wasn't in power. And I think it's relevant, because IMHO the years after 2004 lead to the shift in British public opinion that lead to immigration restrictions becoming such a big topic, and pushing politics towards the referendum.

corty 6y ago

I'm not so sure about that. E.g. there aren't any German truck drivers and trucks anymore, just companies and drivers from eastern europe, because it's cheaper. Similarly for lots of jobs in agriculture, construction and some industries like food processing. That's surprisingly not a problem because of unemployment in Germany as much as it is a social and legal problem: Eastern European workers abroad are underpaid (minimum wage circumvented), uninsured (social security dues circumvented), without appropriate workplace protections (truck drivers doing overtime, illegally having to sleep in their trucks for weeks on end, lax technical safety of the trucks), and draining the economy of their home countries of workers because factories that could have been nearby are in Germany instead. This begs the question: Would it have been as bad as Brexit to restrict worker movements a little more? I would suggest that such restrictions could have even had an overall benefit if done properly. It's just that Germany desperately wanted those cheap workers.

bildung 6y ago
Is that really true? Truck driver is a recognized trade in Germany, and the number of apprenticeships continues to rise: https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-berufskraftfahrer-auch-2018-mehr-ausbildungsvertraege-10725216.html https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-beruf...
- corty 6y ago
  I did exaggerate and the problem is also not so simple: https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern tl;dr: Nobody wants to become a truck driver anymore, even with improving salaries. Higher qualifications and better working conditions might solve the problem in the future. In the meantime we still need drivers from eastern europe.
detaro 6y ago
With the 2004 expansion, Germany (among other states) pressured for restrictions and transitional agreements were made that allowed restricting movement of workers from the newly added countries for up to seven years. The UK was one of the few countries that did not do any of those restrictions, because it's government wanted direct access to cheap labor.
- corty 6y ago
  That is true, but changed over time with the changing local political climate. Back in 2004 Angela Merkel was still strictly right-wing anti-immigration, later she drifted more and more left and pro-immigration.
  - detaro 6y ago
    2004 Merkel also wasn't in power. And I think it's relevant, because IMHO the years after 2004 lead to the shift in British public opinion that lead to immigration restrictions becoming such a big topic, and pushing politics towards the referendum.