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COVID will come and go... Hopeful nothing similar happens within our lifetimes. BREXIT will unfortunately have an impact for much longer. The UK was a place I

COVID will come and go... Hopeful nothing similar happens within our lifetimes. BREXIT will unfortunately have an impact for much longer. The UK was a place I dreamed about living in. English-speaking, great quality of life, weather is pretty mild compared to where I currently am, and, most importantly, open borders with the EU. Now the UK does not even register as an option. This is just me, but I’m sure there are others in the same boat, and as a young Brit you just had a door shut in your face. Not to mention the impact on business that’s going to affect British workers within the UK. It seems unlikely that we’re going to see a larger case of shooting oneself in the foot anytime soon.

spurgu 6y ago
That's what they wanted, to keep pesky immigrants like you away. /s
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  I don't think this merits the /s. Keeping immigrants out literally was a rationale for many Brexit voters, like it was in our 2016 US elections.
  - seaman1921 6y ago
    Exactly, such kind of thinking is unfortunately very much prevalent outside the big cities, even in developed nations like US and UK. I guess it is because the folks outside big cities never had a chance to interact with the immigrants and see the value they add to the society, rather than seeing them as a threat. It is quite sad :(
    - corty 6y ago
      I'm not so sure about that. E.g. there aren't any German truck drivers and trucks anymore, just companies and drivers from eastern europe, because it's cheaper. Similarly for lots of jobs in agriculture, construction and some industries like food processing. That's surprisingly not a problem because of unemployment in Germany as much as it is a social and legal problem: Eastern European workers abroad are underpaid (minimum wage circumvented), uninsured (social security dues circumvented), without appropriate workplace protections (truck drivers doing overtime, illegally having to sleep in their trucks for weeks on end, lax technical safety of the trucks), and draining the economy of their home countries of workers because factories that could have been nearby are in Germany instead. This begs the question: Would it have been as bad as Brexit to restrict worker movements a little more? I would suggest that such restrictions could have even had an overall benefit if done properly. It's just that Germany desperately wanted those cheap workers.
      - bildung 6y ago
        Is that really true? Truck driver is a recognized trade in Germany, and the number of apprenticeships continues to rise: https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-berufskraftfahrer-auch-2018-mehr-ausbildungsvertraege-10725216.html https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-beruf...
        corty 6y ago
        I did exaggerate and the problem is also not so simple: https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern tl;dr: Nobody wants to become a truck driver anymore, even with improving salaries. Higher qualifications and better working conditions might solve the problem in the future. In the meantime we still need drivers from eastern europe.
      - detaro 6y ago
        With the 2004 expansion, Germany (among other states) pressured for restrictions and transitional agreements were made that allowed restricting movement of workers from the newly added countries for up to seven years. The UK was one of the few countries that did not do any of those restrictions, because it's government wanted direct access to cheap labor.
        corty 6y ago
        That is true, but changed over time with the changing local political climate. Back in 2004 Angela Merkel was still strictly right-wing anti-immigration, later she drifted more and more left and pro-immigration.
        detaro 6y ago
        2004 Merkel also wasn't in power. And I think it's relevant, because IMHO the years after 2004 lead to the shift in British public opinion that lead to immigration restrictions becoming such a big topic, and pushing politics towards the referendum.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    Yea and was why May who was pro-EU refused to agree to freedom of movement because she considered the Brexit vote to be a vote primarily againist freedom of movement. Johnson agreed.
    - detaro 6y ago
      And one theory/perspective is that May (with the background of a home secretary) was focused too much on that and drew lines in other sectors without enough consideration for the consequences she then had to try and walk back, which put her always on the defensive against the hardliners, which made a positive framing of a closer-aligned deal impossible. It's fascinating how that shift from "Brexit means a wide range of options and people voted for something of it" to a pile of red lines blocking out a large range of the solution space happened - apparently even to the surprise of members of the government.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    They didn't want unspecialised poor immigrants from Eastern/Southern Europe and didn't want immigrants / refugees running away from Africa. They're more than happy to charge thousands to qualified Eastern/Southern European to get them to come here and pocket high salaries and relatively cheap cost of living / taxes (the other place that compares in EU is Switzerland, but it's much more expensive). Also, they didn't want to pay for poorer countries that will never get their economy together. The UK was one of the few net contributors to the EU.
    - register 6y ago
      "The UK was one of the few net contributors to the EU" -> UK was in very good company as can be found easily here: https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-... and it's not difficult to see that the amount of the net contribution is somewhat proportional to the share of the European GDP . "They didn't want unspecialised poor immigrants from Eastern/Southern Europe" -> the fact is that they were getting a lot of graduated/high specialized immigrants from southern Europe as well.
    - CydeWeys 6y ago
      I don't know if this is 100% true. Part of the anti-immigrant rhetoric is "they're coming here and taking our jobs", which applies just as much to white collar professions as to blue collar ones. Think of all the people in tech who complain about immigrants using H1B visas taking programmer jobs. If you have a zero-sum worldview about how the economy works and how jobs are created, then all immigration is bad, and immigration of people competing with you in the same segment of the labor market is the worst.
midasuni 6y ago
What’s so upsetting. Young brits voted overwhelmingly to remain.
throwaway189262 6y ago
We saw a similar situation play out in the US. A large aging population of post war baby boomers unhappy that younger generations are more liberal and different looking voted in a hardline anti immigrant admin. Just like in the UK, a very large fraction of youth is very much against "leave". I expect this to play out interestingly in the next 5-10 years when younger generations wrest political power from the baby boomers. I fully expect "millennials revenge" with a hard left turn eand forced generational wealth transfer using higher estate and property taxes
- yostrovs 6y ago
  People age and change their points of view. Older people are naturally more conservative when they realize some things are better off the way they are.
  - throwaway189262 6y ago
    More like "the way they used to be" which is what's causing friction in the US and UK. Today's youth grew up with the dotcom bubble, financial crisis, 9/11, and COVID. They're far poorer with less opportunity than prior generations had. The government has failed them and they want change. This is pushing younger generations hard left, and I don't think it's going to change. Most of the "conservativizing" life events like home ownership and building a family are being delayed or just never happening. Today's mellenials and gen z will likely lean democrat till they die. There's also a social theory that older generations lean conservative because the conservative movement dominated their youth, not because they became that way with age. Today's boomers grew up during a ~20 year streak of conservative dominance. Today's youth are the opposite, it's yet to be seen what this will do to political beliefs.
  - baq 6y ago
    this > some things are better off the way they are doesn't follow from this > Older people are naturally more conservative
    - yostrovs 6y ago
DrBazza 6y ago
> as a young Brit you just had a door shut in your face I keep reading this and it's just not true. The vast majority of young Brits go to work or study in the USA/Canada/Australia/NZ, by far, and they don't have the EU's "freedom of movement". Several of my friends worked and studied in Europe before the UK signed the Maastricht treaty in 1992 and it wasn't a problem for them. If you're determined to move countries, which is a significant undertaking, you'll do it regardless of whatever extra perceived barriers there are.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bloodorange 6y ago
  After the bridge has fallen, there may yet be people ferrying themselves across the river. This, however, does not mean the absence of the bridge is not a notable impairment to people's movement across the water.

spurgu 6y ago

That's what they wanted, to keep pesky immigrants like you away. /s

CydeWeys 6y ago
I don't think this merits the /s. Keeping immigrants out literally was a rationale for many Brexit voters, like it was in our 2016 US elections.
- seaman1921 6y ago
  Exactly, such kind of thinking is unfortunately very much prevalent outside the big cities, even in developed nations like US and UK. I guess it is because the folks outside big cities never had a chance to interact with the immigrants and see the value they add to the society, rather than seeing them as a threat. It is quite sad :(
  - corty 6y ago
    I'm not so sure about that. E.g. there aren't any German truck drivers and trucks anymore, just companies and drivers from eastern europe, because it's cheaper. Similarly for lots of jobs in agriculture, construction and some industries like food processing. That's surprisingly not a problem because of unemployment in Germany as much as it is a social and legal problem: Eastern European workers abroad are underpaid (minimum wage circumvented), uninsured (social security dues circumvented), without appropriate workplace protections (truck drivers doing overtime, illegally having to sleep in their trucks for weeks on end, lax technical safety of the trucks), and draining the economy of their home countries of workers because factories that could have been nearby are in Germany instead. This begs the question: Would it have been as bad as Brexit to restrict worker movements a little more? I would suggest that such restrictions could have even had an overall benefit if done properly. It's just that Germany desperately wanted those cheap workers.
    - bildung 6y ago
      Is that really true? Truck driver is a recognized trade in Germany, and the number of apprenticeships continues to rise: https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-berufskraftfahrer-auch-2018-mehr-ausbildungsvertraege-10725216.html https://www.eurotransport.de/artikel/bkf-azubis-und-eu-beruf...
      - corty 6y ago
        I did exaggerate and the problem is also not so simple: https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern https://www.timocom.de/blog/personalmangel-bei-lkw-fahrern tl;dr: Nobody wants to become a truck driver anymore, even with improving salaries. Higher qualifications and better working conditions might solve the problem in the future. In the meantime we still need drivers from eastern europe.
    - detaro 6y ago
      With the 2004 expansion, Germany (among other states) pressured for restrictions and transitional agreements were made that allowed restricting movement of workers from the newly added countries for up to seven years. The UK was one of the few countries that did not do any of those restrictions, because it's government wanted direct access to cheap labor.
      - corty 6y ago
        That is true, but changed over time with the changing local political climate. Back in 2004 Angela Merkel was still strictly right-wing anti-immigration, later she drifted more and more left and pro-immigration.
        detaro 6y ago
        2004 Merkel also wasn't in power. And I think it's relevant, because IMHO the years after 2004 lead to the shift in British public opinion that lead to immigration restrictions becoming such a big topic, and pushing politics towards the referendum.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  Yea and was why May who was pro-EU refused to agree to freedom of movement because she considered the Brexit vote to be a vote primarily againist freedom of movement. Johnson agreed.
  - detaro 6y ago
    And one theory/perspective is that May (with the background of a home secretary) was focused too much on that and drew lines in other sectors without enough consideration for the consequences she then had to try and walk back, which put her always on the defensive against the hardliners, which made a positive framing of a closer-aligned deal impossible. It's fascinating how that shift from "Brexit means a wide range of options and people voted for something of it" to a pile of red lines blocking out a large range of the solution space happened - apparently even to the surprise of members of the government.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  They didn't want unspecialised poor immigrants from Eastern/Southern Europe and didn't want immigrants / refugees running away from Africa. They're more than happy to charge thousands to qualified Eastern/Southern European to get them to come here and pocket high salaries and relatively cheap cost of living / taxes (the other place that compares in EU is Switzerland, but it's much more expensive). Also, they didn't want to pay for poorer countries that will never get their economy together. The UK was one of the few net contributors to the EU.
  - register 6y ago
    "The UK was one of the few net contributors to the EU" -> UK was in very good company as can be found easily here: https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-... and it's not difficult to see that the amount of the net contribution is somewhat proportional to the share of the European GDP . "They didn't want unspecialised poor immigrants from Eastern/Southern Europe" -> the fact is that they were getting a lot of graduated/high specialized immigrants from southern Europe as well.
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    I don't know if this is 100% true. Part of the anti-immigrant rhetoric is "they're coming here and taking our jobs", which applies just as much to white collar professions as to blue collar ones. Think of all the people in tech who complain about immigrants using H1B visas taking programmer jobs. If you have a zero-sum worldview about how the economy works and how jobs are created, then all immigration is bad, and immigration of people competing with you in the same segment of the labor market is the worst.

midasuni 6y ago

What’s so upsetting. Young brits voted overwhelmingly to remain.

throwaway189262 6y ago

We saw a similar situation play out in the US. A large aging population of post war baby boomers unhappy that younger generations are more liberal and different looking voted in a hardline anti immigrant admin. Just like in the UK, a very large fraction of youth is very much against "leave". I expect this to play out interestingly in the next 5-10 years when younger generations wrest political power from the baby boomers. I fully expect "millennials revenge" with a hard left turn eand forced generational wealth transfer using higher estate and property taxes

yostrovs 6y ago
People age and change their points of view. Older people are naturally more conservative when they realize some things are better off the way they are.
- throwaway189262 6y ago
  More like "the way they used to be" which is what's causing friction in the US and UK. Today's youth grew up with the dotcom bubble, financial crisis, 9/11, and COVID. They're far poorer with less opportunity than prior generations had. The government has failed them and they want change. This is pushing younger generations hard left, and I don't think it's going to change. Most of the "conservativizing" life events like home ownership and building a family are being delayed or just never happening. Today's mellenials and gen z will likely lean democrat till they die. There's also a social theory that older generations lean conservative because the conservative movement dominated their youth, not because they became that way with age. Today's boomers grew up during a ~20 year streak of conservative dominance. Today's youth are the opposite, it's yet to be seen what this will do to political beliefs.
- baq 6y ago
  this > some things are better off the way they are doesn't follow from this > Older people are naturally more conservative
  - yostrovs 6y ago

DrBazza 6y ago

> as a young Brit you just had a door shut in your face I keep reading this and it's just not true. The vast majority of young Brits go to work or study in the USA/Canada/Australia/NZ, by far, and they don't have the EU's "freedom of movement". Several of my friends worked and studied in Europe before the UK signed the Maastricht treaty in 1992 and it wasn't a problem for them. If you're determined to move countries, which is a significant undertaking, you'll do it regardless of whatever extra perceived barriers there are.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bloodorange 6y ago
After the bridge has fallen, there may yet be people ferrying themselves across the river. This, however, does not mean the absence of the bridge is not a notable impairment to people's movement across the water.