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FFS. I'm writing this, contrary to the spirit of HN, not to respond to someone, but for anyone else reading that utterly toxic advice: Partner up with someone

FFS. I'm writing this, contrary to the spirit of HN, not to respond to someone, but for anyone else reading that utterly toxic advice: Partner up with someone you love, live with them long enough to be certain you are both in it for the long term (N>3Y, if you need a rough minimum guideline), then consider having a kid or two. It's not effing complicated - happy parents, happy kids. Make sure you dial in the 'happy parents' part before you think about kids. There is no shame in ending a relationship and trying over, and there's no shame in NOT having kids if you aren't sure about the 'happy parents' part. If you think our society is utterly broken and hopeless, sure, get snipped. On the other hand, if you think you are capable of having stable relationships, raising children is pretty damn magical. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you have a great relationship because you want kids.

Person5478 6y ago
I graduated HS in the late 90's, have no children, and it was a very explicit choice. When I was in college I read a story about a boy who was raped and then the courts required him to pay child support (IIRC the woman was a caregiver in a state facility). I then read a story about a man who had his child support payments based upon his _SAVINGS_ rather than his income and after he went broken and could no longer make the full payments, went to jail. I then read about a man who had 3 children with a woman and at some point his wife left him for his best friend. He had all 3 children tested and he was not the father of any of them. The courts still required him to pay child support. After the 3rd story I decided the risk for me as a male was too great and I would never marry, nor have children. I've been with my current SO for over 7 years and definitely consider her my life partner, but she understands that: 1. We will never marry, 2. We will never present as married (to protect against common law) 3. We will never have children (she cannot, so this works out for both of us) --- It's easy to pass men like me off as MRA or disenfranchised or any other number of labels, but the truth is I don't think I've ever been on an MRA site, by all accounts I'm considered successful, and the opportunity has definitely been there. The truth is I was physically and mentally abused until I left home for college and the result of this experience is that I'm very anti-authoritarian and in general much more guarded against the world than most. Once I realized just how stacked our legal system is against men I chose to protect myself. I just cannot imagine being told I can only see my children on a schedule and having to pay for the right to do so with the threat of jail. Society pays a very real cost for its decision to treat men so badly. And this is not nearly as uncommon as you think, the ones who have made these sorts of decisions just tend not to talk about it. Perhaps, rather than dismissing this as a toxic attitude you should endeavor to understand and perhaps help right the very real injustices that happen to men.
aksss 6y ago
I second this, you can blame society or figure out why you keep picking bad partners. Here’s a hint - there are warning signs that a partner is not going to be good relationship material. One may not be a deal-breaker but there’s a stacking effect. Some of these warning signs: child of abusive parents; child of alcoholic parents; mental disease struggles; alcoholism; drug dependency; anger issues; constantly yelling; habit of lying (whether in telling casual stories about themselves or making statements to others); alternate value system; bad financial management skills; severe identity questions. There are enough fish in the sea that you do not need to take these characteristics into a marriage. Find someone that shares your values, your vision of the future and ideally has a similar background to your own - unless you’re the one with the warning signs and are trying to “marry up”. I don’t mean to diminish the importance of love, attraction, and personality compatibility, but for marriage it’s all that and a bag of chips. Can you beat the odds? Sure. The point is the aforementioned attributes will make your life much, much harder than it already will be.
- Retric 6y ago
  You don’t need to pick a bad partner to get utterly fucked over. Sure, paying attention to warning signs is important, but believing making a sound choice is going to protect you is “just world” fantasy land. However, don’t assume it’s about them, perhaps you’re the one that gets tempted to break things off for one reason or another. Are you happy with all the choices the you of 20 years ago made? Sometimes divorce is a straightforward process where people can remain friends after the fact, but that’s rare as normally someone’s upset.
  - aksss 6y ago
    There are always exceptions to rules, I'm not sure we need to dwell too much on that fact. This is about risk reduction, not absolute protection.
cudgy 6y ago
Still no guarantees...people change and kids are a new dynamic that can bring out the worst in a partner. Don’t ask how I know this.
Broken_Hippo 6y ago
I disagree. Many, many relationships end 5 and 10 years into it. People change, and this is even more likely to happen if you met before both of you are 25 and then again in mid life. Yes, get to know someone before having children. But I'd argue that you should have children with someone that seems like they'll be a good parent even if the relationship is over. Its OK to talk about it upfront, too. Also, a note about "getting snipped": In some countries (like the US), it is almost impossible for a childless female to get sterilized. "You'll change your mind" "you don't have children, so no" "Why don't we ask your spouse" (these last two happen to men as well). You don't have the right to be sterilized. Other places, you must wait until you are 25, but then everyone - male or female - can get sterilized so long as they can pay for it. So, good luck, poor people.
- Proziam 6y ago
  For those reading this I would like to offer my own experience. I was 24 when I got a vasectomy and it was probably the single best decision I ever made. Total cost was $800 (I paid cash) and the total time commitment was approximately 90 minutes. I spent less than 30 minutes on an initial consultation, half of which was scheduling the procedure. Another half hour was spent getting the procedure itself. And finally, you'll want to get a test done to ensure the procedure worked as advertised. I was never asked 'are you really sure?' or 'what about your spouse?' or 'what if you change your mind?' Edit - Also, it hurts less than my jaw after a trip to the dentist. More of a mild ache than serious 'pain'
- notacoward 6y ago
  > People change ...and they're particularly likely to change under stress, like perhaps the stress of major lifestyle changes associated with raising kids. Child-related constraints on schedules, travel, and finances often stress relationships that were fine for years before. When those kids become more independent and able to advocate for themselves - which is a good and healthy thing - you have the additional stress of a decision process that used to involve two people involving three or more instead. It's just a different world compared to the couple-without-children state. For some it's a breaking point.
- tacocataco 6y ago

Person5478 6y ago

I graduated HS in the late 90's, have no children, and it was a very explicit choice. When I was in college I read a story about a boy who was raped and then the courts required him to pay child support (IIRC the woman was a caregiver in a state facility). I then read a story about a man who had his child support payments based upon his _SAVINGS_ rather than his income and after he went broken and could no longer make the full payments, went to jail. I then read about a man who had 3 children with a woman and at some point his wife left him for his best friend. He had all 3 children tested and he was not the father of any of them. The courts still required him to pay child support. After the 3rd story I decided the risk for me as a male was too great and I would never marry, nor have children. I've been with my current SO for over 7 years and definitely consider her my life partner, but she understands that: 1. We will never marry, 2. We will never present as married (to protect against common law) 3. We will never have children (she cannot, so this works out for both of us) --- It's easy to pass men like me off as MRA or disenfranchised or any other number of labels, but the truth is I don't think I've ever been on an MRA site, by all accounts I'm considered successful, and the opportunity has definitely been there. The truth is I was physically and mentally abused until I left home for college and the result of this experience is that I'm very anti-authoritarian and in general much more guarded against the world than most. Once I realized just how stacked our legal system is against men I chose to protect myself. I just cannot imagine being told I can only see my children on a schedule and having to pay for the right to do so with the threat of jail. Society pays a very real cost for its decision to treat men so badly. And this is not nearly as uncommon as you think, the ones who have made these sorts of decisions just tend not to talk about it. Perhaps, rather than dismissing this as a toxic attitude you should endeavor to understand and perhaps help right the very real injustices that happen to men.

aksss 6y ago

I second this, you can blame society or figure out why you keep picking bad partners. Here’s a hint - there are warning signs that a partner is not going to be good relationship material. One may not be a deal-breaker but there’s a stacking effect. Some of these warning signs: child of abusive parents; child of alcoholic parents; mental disease struggles; alcoholism; drug dependency; anger issues; constantly yelling; habit of lying (whether in telling casual stories about themselves or making statements to others); alternate value system; bad financial management skills; severe identity questions. There are enough fish in the sea that you do not need to take these characteristics into a marriage. Find someone that shares your values, your vision of the future and ideally has a similar background to your own - unless you’re the one with the warning signs and are trying to “marry up”. I don’t mean to diminish the importance of love, attraction, and personality compatibility, but for marriage it’s all that and a bag of chips. Can you beat the odds? Sure. The point is the aforementioned attributes will make your life much, much harder than it already will be.

Retric 6y ago
You don’t need to pick a bad partner to get utterly fucked over. Sure, paying attention to warning signs is important, but believing making a sound choice is going to protect you is “just world” fantasy land. However, don’t assume it’s about them, perhaps you’re the one that gets tempted to break things off for one reason or another. Are you happy with all the choices the you of 20 years ago made? Sometimes divorce is a straightforward process where people can remain friends after the fact, but that’s rare as normally someone’s upset.
- aksss 6y ago
  There are always exceptions to rules, I'm not sure we need to dwell too much on that fact. This is about risk reduction, not absolute protection.

cudgy 6y ago

Still no guarantees...people change and kids are a new dynamic that can bring out the worst in a partner. Don’t ask how I know this.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago

I disagree. Many, many relationships end 5 and 10 years into it. People change, and this is even more likely to happen if you met before both of you are 25 and then again in mid life. Yes, get to know someone before having children. But I'd argue that you should have children with someone that seems like they'll be a good parent even if the relationship is over. Its OK to talk about it upfront, too. Also, a note about "getting snipped": In some countries (like the US), it is almost impossible for a childless female to get sterilized. "You'll change your mind" "you don't have children, so no" "Why don't we ask your spouse" (these last two happen to men as well). You don't have the right to be sterilized. Other places, you must wait until you are 25, but then everyone - male or female - can get sterilized so long as they can pay for it. So, good luck, poor people.

Proziam 6y ago
For those reading this I would like to offer my own experience. I was 24 when I got a vasectomy and it was probably the single best decision I ever made. Total cost was $800 (I paid cash) and the total time commitment was approximately 90 minutes. I spent less than 30 minutes on an initial consultation, half of which was scheduling the procedure. Another half hour was spent getting the procedure itself. And finally, you'll want to get a test done to ensure the procedure worked as advertised. I was never asked 'are you really sure?' or 'what about your spouse?' or 'what if you change your mind?' Edit - Also, it hurts less than my jaw after a trip to the dentist. More of a mild ache than serious 'pain'
notacoward 6y ago
> People change ...and they're particularly likely to change under stress, like perhaps the stress of major lifestyle changes associated with raising kids. Child-related constraints on schedules, travel, and finances often stress relationships that were fine for years before. When those kids become more independent and able to advocate for themselves - which is a good and healthy thing - you have the additional stress of a decision process that used to involve two people involving three or more instead. It's just a different world compared to the couple-without-children state. For some it's a breaking point.
tacocataco 6y ago