11 ms·

Just want to add here that family court comes into play anytime there are underage children involved, irrespective of whether the parents are married or not (in

Just want to add here that family court comes into play anytime there are underage children involved, irrespective of whether the parents are married or not (in most states). So not getting married provides no protection from being involved in those same, potentially endless, ongoing family court cases.

Retric 6y ago
I decided to avoid marriage and kids in large part due to the divorce courts, so you do have that option. Vasectomy is not the ideal option, but it’s seriously worth considering in our utterly broken society.
- SignalNotSecure 6y ago
  If you spend enough time living with a partner together in the same locale you are de-facto married in many jurisdictions Being not married is often utterly meaningless. You will be caught up in the dragnet.
  - Person5478 6y ago
    This is known as common law marriage and has the requirement that you _PRESENT_ as married to the world. If you don't present as married you are not common law married.
  - Retric 6y ago
    It’s only currently possible to start one in 7 states and the District of Columbia. So avoid Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Texas, New Hampshire, and Utah. Though New Hampshire only accepts them for probate as a spouse can inherit without paying taxes etc. Even in the remaining 6 states you generally have to represent yourselves as married in some context like filing taxes jointly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage_in_the_United_States#Colorado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage_in_the_Uni... PS: California does accept common law marriages formed in another state.
- baxtr 6y ago
  I’ve heard it hurts a lot?
  - cko 6y ago
    For 48 hours after the procedure you will walk slowly. Then a mild kicked in the balls aching will follow for weeks. Three hours after my vasectomy I went straight into work, against instruction. I was a pharmacist then so fairly active. The anesthesia wears off an about one hour. I chose not to take any ibuprofen throughout. It was fine. I don't have heroic levels of pain tolerance either.
  - imhoguy 6y ago
    I would fear of having chronic PVPS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-vasectomy_pain_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-vasectomy_pain_syndrome
    - baxtr 6y ago
      OMG...
    - tacocataco 6y ago
      Interesting that I was not informed of this when I got my vasectomy. Still would have gone through with the procedure. 1-2% chance with the vast majority having their pain treated with a second procedure is not enough of a risk to stop me from being in control of my own life. But still, it would have been nice to be informed of this.
  - tacocataco 6y ago
    They use a needle injection and then a spray pain killer. I barely felt it during, most of the soreness was after the procedure. Don't plan on doing anything for 5 days. I was a security guard at a casino and went back day 4. First half of my shift I was ok, but I went home half way through my shift because walking the patrols was becoming a little uncomfortable. Here is a rather controversial opinion of mine, hope it is not out of place here: I would highly encourage all men to get a vasectomy and to freeze your sperm. It is the only way to have sexual agency. Once the woman is pregnant, your consent does not matter and you only are along for the ride. I just want to clarify here, I believe in Her body her choice. I just believe that the man should have this be a choice as well, and this the only option as far as I see. I would like to hear of alternatives if anyone has them. Even if you feel sure of not wanting kids, freezing sperm is much cheaper then reversing the vasectomy. People change, and so can you.
- javajosh 6y ago
  Maybe universal prenups are the solution then. Prenups are nice because they keep the "exit" well-defined. In fact, prenups are romantic! Why? Because some marriages are kept together only out of fear of the divorce process. Isn't it better to stay together out of love and affection, rather than fear of the consequences of a messy exit? So yeah: prenup == VERY romantic.
  - odiroot 6y ago
    It seems like universal pre-nups and paternity tests would solve a lot of the problems that other commenters mentioned in this thread.
    - Person5478 6y ago
      yes. every woman I've ever dated has understood from the beginning that if she ends up pregnant there will paternity tests done. I've had a few get angry with me, but all of them understood it was going to happen regardless of their feelings.
    - rechevskiy 6y ago
      ...and another quick note about prenups :) They generally have limited or no influence on custody determinations; in other words, you can’t have a prenup that guarantees joint physical and legal custody or prevents a protracted family law case. And the other lesser known fact is that prenups themselves can be challenged (and sometimes overturned). Basically, if there is a will and the funds to litigate, there’s not much the other party can do do prevent this from happening. It will require time, money, expertise, patience and the ability to compromise (even with highly conflicting opinions) to eventually make it out on the other side. So what can any of us do to avoid this fate without giving up entirely on marriage or kids? 1. Know yourself (at least a little bit) before jumping into marriage and kids. Develop your “whys”, principles and values. 2. Ensure you and your spouse are familiar with the processes and realities of the family law systems. Not just the horror stories but the underlying history, structure and reasons for its design and function. 3. Talk through with your prospective partner about values, goals, responsibilities, wealth, family, parenting, divorce; talk through different scenarios and try to get on the same page about the key components. (Tip: if you can’t agree or compromise even before marriage and kids, it doesn’t bode well!) Sigh. So much to say here, but most folks have no interest in the subject until it’s too late. Education on this topic should at least be a prerequisite for getting a marriage license! :)
- stickfigure 6y ago
  FFS. I'm writing this, contrary to the spirit of HN, not to respond to someone, but for anyone else reading that utterly toxic advice: Partner up with someone you love, live with them long enough to be certain you are both in it for the long term (N>3Y, if you need a rough minimum guideline), then consider having a kid or two. It's not effing complicated - happy parents, happy kids. Make sure you dial in the 'happy parents' part before you think about kids. There is no shame in ending a relationship and trying over, and there's no shame in NOT having kids if you aren't sure about the 'happy parents' part. If you think our society is utterly broken and hopeless, sure, get snipped. On the other hand, if you think you are capable of having stable relationships, raising children is pretty damn magical. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you have a great relationship because you want kids.
  - Person5478 6y ago
    I graduated HS in the late 90's, have no children, and it was a very explicit choice. When I was in college I read a story about a boy who was raped and then the courts required him to pay child support (IIRC the woman was a caregiver in a state facility). I then read a story about a man who had his child support payments based upon his _SAVINGS_ rather than his income and after he went broken and could no longer make the full payments, went to jail. I then read about a man who had 3 children with a woman and at some point his wife left him for his best friend. He had all 3 children tested and he was not the father of any of them. The courts still required him to pay child support. After the 3rd story I decided the risk for me as a male was too great and I would never marry, nor have children. I've been with my current SO for over 7 years and definitely consider her my life partner, but she understands that: 1. We will never marry, 2. We will never present as married (to protect against common law) 3. We will never have children (she cannot, so this works out for both of us) --- It's easy to pass men like me off as MRA or disenfranchised or any other number of labels, but the truth is I don't think I've ever been on an MRA site, by all accounts I'm considered successful, and the opportunity has definitely been there. The truth is I was physically and mentally abused until I left home for college and the result of this experience is that I'm very anti-authoritarian and in general much more guarded against the world than most. Once I realized just how stacked our legal system is against men I chose to protect myself. I just cannot imagine being told I can only see my children on a schedule and having to pay for the right to do so with the threat of jail. Society pays a very real cost for its decision to treat men so badly. And this is not nearly as uncommon as you think, the ones who have made these sorts of decisions just tend not to talk about it. Perhaps, rather than dismissing this as a toxic attitude you should endeavor to understand and perhaps help right the very real injustices that happen to men.
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  > I decided to avoid marriage and kids in large part due to the divorce courts I've never had a job because I'm worried what it would be like to be unemployed.
  - maratc 6y ago
    That's hardly a fair comparison. Being out of job just gets you back into the same situation you were in before. Being out of marriage (even more so, marriage with kids) can get you into a much worse situation, financially-, mentally- and emotionally-wise, in comparison to where you were before.
  - tjalfi 6y ago
    Unemployment is (hopefully) temporary - marriage, children, and divorce can permanently change your life. Between 40-50% of US couples divorce[0]. Prior marriages substantially increase the chances of divorce[1]. 41% of first marriages end in divorce. 60% of second marriages end in divorce. 73% of third marriages end in divorce. I'm not against marriage but it's important to understand what's involved. [0] https://www.apa.org/topics/divorce-child-custody https://www.apa.org/topics/divorce-child-custody [1] https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/ https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/

Retric 6y ago

I decided to avoid marriage and kids in large part due to the divorce courts, so you do have that option. Vasectomy is not the ideal option, but it’s seriously worth considering in our utterly broken society.

SignalNotSecure 6y ago
If you spend enough time living with a partner together in the same locale you are de-facto married in many jurisdictions Being not married is often utterly meaningless. You will be caught up in the dragnet.
- Person5478 6y ago
  This is known as common law marriage and has the requirement that you _PRESENT_ as married to the world. If you don't present as married you are not common law married.
- Retric 6y ago
  It’s only currently possible to start one in 7 states and the District of Columbia. So avoid Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Texas, New Hampshire, and Utah. Though New Hampshire only accepts them for probate as a spouse can inherit without paying taxes etc. Even in the remaining 6 states you generally have to represent yourselves as married in some context like filing taxes jointly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage_in_the_United_States#Colorado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage_in_the_Uni... PS: California does accept common law marriages formed in another state.
baxtr 6y ago
I’ve heard it hurts a lot?
- cko 6y ago
  For 48 hours after the procedure you will walk slowly. Then a mild kicked in the balls aching will follow for weeks. Three hours after my vasectomy I went straight into work, against instruction. I was a pharmacist then so fairly active. The anesthesia wears off an about one hour. I chose not to take any ibuprofen throughout. It was fine. I don't have heroic levels of pain tolerance either.
- imhoguy 6y ago
  I would fear of having chronic PVPS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-vasectomy_pain_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-vasectomy_pain_syndrome
  - baxtr 6y ago
    OMG...
  - tacocataco 6y ago
    Interesting that I was not informed of this when I got my vasectomy. Still would have gone through with the procedure. 1-2% chance with the vast majority having their pain treated with a second procedure is not enough of a risk to stop me from being in control of my own life. But still, it would have been nice to be informed of this.
- tacocataco 6y ago
  They use a needle injection and then a spray pain killer. I barely felt it during, most of the soreness was after the procedure. Don't plan on doing anything for 5 days. I was a security guard at a casino and went back day 4. First half of my shift I was ok, but I went home half way through my shift because walking the patrols was becoming a little uncomfortable. Here is a rather controversial opinion of mine, hope it is not out of place here: I would highly encourage all men to get a vasectomy and to freeze your sperm. It is the only way to have sexual agency. Once the woman is pregnant, your consent does not matter and you only are along for the ride. I just want to clarify here, I believe in Her body her choice. I just believe that the man should have this be a choice as well, and this the only option as far as I see. I would like to hear of alternatives if anyone has them. Even if you feel sure of not wanting kids, freezing sperm is much cheaper then reversing the vasectomy. People change, and so can you.
javajosh 6y ago
Maybe universal prenups are the solution then. Prenups are nice because they keep the "exit" well-defined. In fact, prenups are romantic! Why? Because some marriages are kept together only out of fear of the divorce process. Isn't it better to stay together out of love and affection, rather than fear of the consequences of a messy exit? So yeah: prenup == VERY romantic.
- odiroot 6y ago
  It seems like universal pre-nups and paternity tests would solve a lot of the problems that other commenters mentioned in this thread.
  - Person5478 6y ago
    yes. every woman I've ever dated has understood from the beginning that if she ends up pregnant there will paternity tests done. I've had a few get angry with me, but all of them understood it was going to happen regardless of their feelings.
  - rechevskiy 6y ago
    ...and another quick note about prenups :) They generally have limited or no influence on custody determinations; in other words, you can’t have a prenup that guarantees joint physical and legal custody or prevents a protracted family law case. And the other lesser known fact is that prenups themselves can be challenged (and sometimes overturned). Basically, if there is a will and the funds to litigate, there’s not much the other party can do do prevent this from happening. It will require time, money, expertise, patience and the ability to compromise (even with highly conflicting opinions) to eventually make it out on the other side. So what can any of us do to avoid this fate without giving up entirely on marriage or kids? 1. Know yourself (at least a little bit) before jumping into marriage and kids. Develop your “whys”, principles and values. 2. Ensure you and your spouse are familiar with the processes and realities of the family law systems. Not just the horror stories but the underlying history, structure and reasons for its design and function. 3. Talk through with your prospective partner about values, goals, responsibilities, wealth, family, parenting, divorce; talk through different scenarios and try to get on the same page about the key components. (Tip: if you can’t agree or compromise even before marriage and kids, it doesn’t bode well!) Sigh. So much to say here, but most folks have no interest in the subject until it’s too late. Education on this topic should at least be a prerequisite for getting a marriage license! :)
stickfigure 6y ago
FFS. I'm writing this, contrary to the spirit of HN, not to respond to someone, but for anyone else reading that utterly toxic advice: Partner up with someone you love, live with them long enough to be certain you are both in it for the long term (N>3Y, if you need a rough minimum guideline), then consider having a kid or two. It's not effing complicated - happy parents, happy kids. Make sure you dial in the 'happy parents' part before you think about kids. There is no shame in ending a relationship and trying over, and there's no shame in NOT having kids if you aren't sure about the 'happy parents' part. If you think our society is utterly broken and hopeless, sure, get snipped. On the other hand, if you think you are capable of having stable relationships, raising children is pretty damn magical. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you have a great relationship because you want kids.
- Person5478 6y ago
  I graduated HS in the late 90's, have no children, and it was a very explicit choice. When I was in college I read a story about a boy who was raped and then the courts required him to pay child support (IIRC the woman was a caregiver in a state facility). I then read a story about a man who had his child support payments based upon his _SAVINGS_ rather than his income and after he went broken and could no longer make the full payments, went to jail. I then read about a man who had 3 children with a woman and at some point his wife left him for his best friend. He had all 3 children tested and he was not the father of any of them. The courts still required him to pay child support. After the 3rd story I decided the risk for me as a male was too great and I would never marry, nor have children. I've been with my current SO for over 7 years and definitely consider her my life partner, but she understands that: 1. We will never marry, 2. We will never present as married (to protect against common law) 3. We will never have children (she cannot, so this works out for both of us) --- It's easy to pass men like me off as MRA or disenfranchised or any other number of labels, but the truth is I don't think I've ever been on an MRA site, by all accounts I'm considered successful, and the opportunity has definitely been there. The truth is I was physically and mentally abused until I left home for college and the result of this experience is that I'm very anti-authoritarian and in general much more guarded against the world than most. Once I realized just how stacked our legal system is against men I chose to protect myself. I just cannot imagine being told I can only see my children on a schedule and having to pay for the right to do so with the threat of jail. Society pays a very real cost for its decision to treat men so badly. And this is not nearly as uncommon as you think, the ones who have made these sorts of decisions just tend not to talk about it. Perhaps, rather than dismissing this as a toxic attitude you should endeavor to understand and perhaps help right the very real injustices that happen to men.
robertlagrant 6y ago
> I decided to avoid marriage and kids in large part due to the divorce courts I've never had a job because I'm worried what it would be like to be unemployed.
- maratc 6y ago
  That's hardly a fair comparison. Being out of job just gets you back into the same situation you were in before. Being out of marriage (even more so, marriage with kids) can get you into a much worse situation, financially-, mentally- and emotionally-wise, in comparison to where you were before.
- tjalfi 6y ago
  Unemployment is (hopefully) temporary - marriage, children, and divorce can permanently change your life. Between 40-50% of US couples divorce[0]. Prior marriages substantially increase the chances of divorce[1]. 41% of first marriages end in divorce. 60% of second marriages end in divorce. 73% of third marriages end in divorce. I'm not against marriage but it's important to understand what's involved. [0] https://www.apa.org/topics/divorce-child-custody https://www.apa.org/topics/divorce-child-custody [1] https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/ https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/