7 ms·

...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure...

...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure... Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Getting rid of that would be an enormous net win, both ethical and environmental.

snakeboy 6y ago
Ethics aside, I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. That being said, I think it's only fair to compare that to all the antibiotics, hormones, and fertilizers that your average low-grade ground beef has been exposed to or fed.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  > I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils Weird, how? Weird, because they have funny names that are hard to pronounce, and are therefore magically "unnatural" and bad for you? Or weird, because their effects on nutrition, digestion, and human health hasn't been widely studied yet?
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    Both. This pursuit of tasting "kinda like meat" has incurred a lot of odd ingredients most people would normally eschew if they knew the extent of study in human consumption. Plain meat has a much better track record. I don't blame any meat eater for rolling their eyes at this stuff. And the decisions are sometimes odd. Like beet juice being added not for flavor but so it looks like the patty is bleeding. Meat eaters aren't sold because the veggie burger looks rare. The truth is meat eaters aren't, en massé, abandoning meat for a plant based alternative that provides little to no health benefit and costs just as much or more. Will we get there? Probably. But we're in a weird limbo area that is barely appealing to either side of the fence other than as a novelty.
    - Badfood 6y ago
      Meat has a better track record huh? Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. Those 'odd ingredients' don't seem so odd to me. Go through the list of a meat alternative one by one, you'll be surprised how mundane they are
      - nkozyra 6y ago
        > Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. [ citation needed ] I'm a long-time vegetarian but this kind of specious pseudo science doesn't sit right with me.
        Badfood 6y ago
        Calling it pseudo science is more in need of a citation than the original statement.
        nkozyra 6y ago
        That's not how it works. If you're going to make a claim, support it.
        Badfood 6y ago
        The original claim was that meat has a good track record. Citation needed. NIH is brimming with publications to the contrary
        nkozyra 6y ago
        Sure. Humans have been eating meat for tens of thousands of years. That's a track record. The idea that something that's been consumed by humans since there have been himself having a better track record than something that historically hasn't isn't even controversial. Your turn. Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by meat, right? I've spent most of my life as a vegetation but dishonest histrionics like this do a disservice to the aim of convincing meat eaters to eat less meat.
- esperent 6y ago
  > weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. Here's the ingredients list for the impossible burger: Water, textured wheat protein, coconut oil, potato protein, natural flavors, 2% or less of leghemoglobin (soy), yeast extract, salt, konjac gum, xanthan gum, soy protein isolate, vitamin E, vitamin C, thiamine (vitamin B1), zinc, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin (vitamin B2), and vitamin B12. The only thing unusual is leghemoglobin, which is fermented soy protein.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    Maybe if you are used to eating processed food, but as someone who almost always cooks meals from scratch, this list of ingredients doesn't look appealing. If I was buying a chicken breast, there wouldn't even be a list of ingredients. "textured wheat protein" - no idea what it, but it sounds disgusting, and very highly processed. I'd presume it also contains gluten? "potato protein" - again, it sounds like something highly processed. "natural flavors" - it doesn't specify exactly what they are, so I don't even know what I'm eating - I don't like it. "leghemoglobin" - you mentioned what this is, but otherwise it sounds like a lab-produced chemical. "yeast extract" - makes me think of marmite, which is one of the most revolting substances on earth! Aside from that, I think of the smell of yeast; I... don't think I want to eat that. "konjac gum" - never heard of it. "xanthan gum" - I think it's some kind of thickening agent? "soy protein isolate" - no idea what this is. The wheat and potato proteins don't have "isolate" in their names, so I assume this is even more highly processed. For some reason it makes me think of processes like "hydrogenation" - ways we mess around with foods to make them as cheap as possible, sometimes with negative health consequences. "vitamin E..." - makes me think the raw ingredients on their own are so unhealthy that they had to add a few crushed multivitamins. Overall: it sounds highly processed and devoid of nutrition. blech!
    - Clewza313 6y ago
      Konjac is a plant that has been eaten in East Asia for thousands of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjac And if you find yeast "revolting", I take it you don't like bread or beer either?
Spooky23 6y ago
Fix that then. Replacing garbage meat with garbage ersatz meat isn’t a win.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  It’s a win for the food industry, because fake meat can be made extremely cheaply, but the price is still anchored to the cost of actual meat.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    That’s what’s so gross about it. We take a governance problem (bad practices in meat and dairy industry), hijack fringe movements like veganism, and turn it into way to undermine sustainable agriculture. The MBAs running big companies don’t care if burgers are from beef or ground up sawdust. It’s just cash. Along the way, we’re tricking people into thinking that some palm oil smoothie is healthier than meat, and that sugared water filtered through oats is better than dairy.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      The worst thing is that consumers fall for it, every single time.
encom 6y ago
>Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Yes I have. My job as an electrician brought me to farms, slaughterhouses, and food factories. Denmark has rigorously enforced standards for ethical treatment of animals, as well as strict hygiene standards for industrial food preparation. Not disgusting at all.
tomp 6y ago
I can buy organic, grass-fed, no-GMO, sustainably pasture-raised beef. Can I buy a higher-quality vurger? AFAIK not (right now).
- danbolt 6y ago
  I’d be fine with that and then plant-based pub burgers for the rest.
- atweiden 6y ago
  > I can buy organic, grass-fed, no-GMO, sustainably pasture-raised beef. No, actually you probably can't [1]: > Is there such a thing as a climatically-guilt-free steak? Are grazing livestock climate villains or climate saviours? A new report by an international research collaboration led by the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), part of the Oxford Martin Programme on the Future of Food, provides an authoritative answer to these questions. > The new report Grazed and confused? helps add clarity to the debate around livestock farming and meat and dairy consumption. > 14.5% of all human made greenhouse gas emissions come from the livestock sector as a whole. There is however some confusion and disagreement in the debate about the climate impacts of grazing livestock (and particularly grass-fed beef). > Some commentators have argued that well-managed grazing can remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and sequester it in soils, and that these removals can substantially compensate for, or even exceed, all other emissions from the livestock that are doing the grazing. In this way, grass-fed beef has been offered by some as a climate solution, rather than a problem. > Written by FCRN’s Dr Tara Garnett in collaboration with Cécile Godde of CSIRO and a team of international experts, this report dissects claims made by different stakeholders in the debate, and evaluates them against the best available science. This report finds that better management of grass-fed livestock do not hold a solution to climate change as only under very specific conditions can they help sequester carbon. This sequestering of carbon is even then small, time-limited, reversible and substantially outweighed by the greenhouse gas emissions these grazing animals generate. Dr Garnett explains the key takeaways from this report: > “This report concludes that grass-fed livestock are not a climate solution. Grazing livestock are net contributors to the climate problem, as are all livestock. Rising animal production and consumption, whatever the farming system and animal type, is causing damaging greenhouse gas release and contributing to changes in land use. Ultimately, if high consuming individuals and countries want to do something positive for the climate, maintaining their current consumption levels but simply switching to grass-fed beef is not a solution. Eating less meat, of all types, is.” [1]: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-news-grazed-and-confused/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-news-grazed-and-...

snakeboy 6y ago

Ethics aside, I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. That being said, I think it's only fair to compare that to all the antibiotics, hormones, and fertilizers that your average low-grade ground beef has been exposed to or fed.

henrikschroder 6y ago
> I think the parent comment was referring to weird additives and oils Weird, how? Weird, because they have funny names that are hard to pronounce, and are therefore magically "unnatural" and bad for you? Or weird, because their effects on nutrition, digestion, and human health hasn't been widely studied yet?
- nkozyra 6y ago
  Both. This pursuit of tasting "kinda like meat" has incurred a lot of odd ingredients most people would normally eschew if they knew the extent of study in human consumption. Plain meat has a much better track record. I don't blame any meat eater for rolling their eyes at this stuff. And the decisions are sometimes odd. Like beet juice being added not for flavor but so it looks like the patty is bleeding. Meat eaters aren't sold because the veggie burger looks rare. The truth is meat eaters aren't, en massé, abandoning meat for a plant based alternative that provides little to no health benefit and costs just as much or more. Will we get there? Probably. But we're in a weird limbo area that is barely appealing to either side of the fence other than as a novelty.
  - Badfood 6y ago
    Meat has a better track record huh? Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. Those 'odd ingredients' don't seem so odd to me. Go through the list of a meat alternative one by one, you'll be surprised how mundane they are
    - nkozyra 6y ago
      > Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. [ citation needed ] I'm a long-time vegetarian but this kind of specious pseudo science doesn't sit right with me.
      - Badfood 6y ago
        Calling it pseudo science is more in need of a citation than the original statement.
        nkozyra 6y ago
        That's not how it works. If you're going to make a claim, support it.
        Badfood 6y ago
        The original claim was that meat has a good track record. Citation needed. NIH is brimming with publications to the contrary
        nkozyra 6y ago
        Sure. Humans have been eating meat for tens of thousands of years. That's a track record. The idea that something that's been consumed by humans since there have been himself having a better track record than something that historically hasn't isn't even controversial. Your turn. Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by meat, right? I've spent most of my life as a vegetation but dishonest histrionics like this do a disservice to the aim of convincing meat eaters to eat less meat.
esperent 6y ago
> weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. Here's the ingredients list for the impossible burger: Water, textured wheat protein, coconut oil, potato protein, natural flavors, 2% or less of leghemoglobin (soy), yeast extract, salt, konjac gum, xanthan gum, soy protein isolate, vitamin E, vitamin C, thiamine (vitamin B1), zinc, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin (vitamin B2), and vitamin B12. The only thing unusual is leghemoglobin, which is fermented soy protein.
- GordonS 6y ago
  Maybe if you are used to eating processed food, but as someone who almost always cooks meals from scratch, this list of ingredients doesn't look appealing. If I was buying a chicken breast, there wouldn't even be a list of ingredients. "textured wheat protein" - no idea what it, but it sounds disgusting, and very highly processed. I'd presume it also contains gluten? "potato protein" - again, it sounds like something highly processed. "natural flavors" - it doesn't specify exactly what they are, so I don't even know what I'm eating - I don't like it. "leghemoglobin" - you mentioned what this is, but otherwise it sounds like a lab-produced chemical. "yeast extract" - makes me think of marmite, which is one of the most revolting substances on earth! Aside from that, I think of the smell of yeast; I... don't think I want to eat that. "konjac gum" - never heard of it. "xanthan gum" - I think it's some kind of thickening agent? "soy protein isolate" - no idea what this is. The wheat and potato proteins don't have "isolate" in their names, so I assume this is even more highly processed. For some reason it makes me think of processes like "hydrogenation" - ways we mess around with foods to make them as cheap as possible, sometimes with negative health consequences. "vitamin E..." - makes me think the raw ingredients on their own are so unhealthy that they had to add a few crushed multivitamins. Overall: it sounds highly processed and devoid of nutrition. blech!
  - Clewza313 6y ago
    Konjac is a plant that has been eaten in East Asia for thousands of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjac And if you find yeast "revolting", I take it you don't like bread or beer either?

Spooky23 6y ago

Fix that then. Replacing garbage meat with garbage ersatz meat isn’t a win.

Grustaf 6y ago
It’s a win for the food industry, because fake meat can be made extremely cheaply, but the price is still anchored to the cost of actual meat.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  That’s what’s so gross about it. We take a governance problem (bad practices in meat and dairy industry), hijack fringe movements like veganism, and turn it into way to undermine sustainable agriculture. The MBAs running big companies don’t care if burgers are from beef or ground up sawdust. It’s just cash. Along the way, we’re tricking people into thinking that some palm oil smoothie is healthier than meat, and that sugared water filtered through oats is better than dairy.
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    The worst thing is that consumers fall for it, every single time.

encom 6y ago

>Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Yes I have. My job as an electrician brought me to farms, slaughterhouses, and food factories. Denmark has rigorously enforced standards for ethical treatment of animals, as well as strict hygiene standards for industrial food preparation. Not disgusting at all.

tomp 6y ago

I can buy organic, grass-fed, no-GMO, sustainably pasture-raised beef. Can I buy a higher-quality vurger? AFAIK not (right now).

danbolt 6y ago
I’d be fine with that and then plant-based pub burgers for the rest.
atweiden 6y ago
> I can buy organic, grass-fed, no-GMO, sustainably pasture-raised beef. No, actually you probably can't [1]: > Is there such a thing as a climatically-guilt-free steak? Are grazing livestock climate villains or climate saviours? A new report by an international research collaboration led by the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), part of the Oxford Martin Programme on the Future of Food, provides an authoritative answer to these questions. > The new report Grazed and confused? helps add clarity to the debate around livestock farming and meat and dairy consumption. > 14.5% of all human made greenhouse gas emissions come from the livestock sector as a whole. There is however some confusion and disagreement in the debate about the climate impacts of grazing livestock (and particularly grass-fed beef). > Some commentators have argued that well-managed grazing can remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and sequester it in soils, and that these removals can substantially compensate for, or even exceed, all other emissions from the livestock that are doing the grazing. In this way, grass-fed beef has been offered by some as a climate solution, rather than a problem. > Written by FCRN’s Dr Tara Garnett in collaboration with Cécile Godde of CSIRO and a team of international experts, this report dissects claims made by different stakeholders in the debate, and evaluates them against the best available science. This report finds that better management of grass-fed livestock do not hold a solution to climate change as only under very specific conditions can they help sequester carbon. This sequestering of carbon is even then small, time-limited, reversible and substantially outweighed by the greenhouse gas emissions these grazing animals generate. Dr Garnett explains the key takeaways from this report: > “This report concludes that grass-fed livestock are not a climate solution. Grazing livestock are net contributors to the climate problem, as are all livestock. Rising animal production and consumption, whatever the farming system and animal type, is causing damaging greenhouse gas release and contributing to changes in land use. Ultimately, if high consuming individuals and countries want to do something positive for the climate, maintaining their current consumption levels but simply switching to grass-fed beef is not a solution. Eating less meat, of all types, is.” [1]: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-news-grazed-and-confused/ https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-news-grazed-and-...