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of course. but even if you fix environment, girls will usually interact and experience the world different than boys which obviously will cause their brains to

of course. but even if you fix environment, girls will usually interact and experience the world different than boys which obviously will cause their brains to form differently. even though environment is same. lots of studies about that. especially twin studies with m/f twins.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> lots of studies about that. especially twin studies with m/f twins. Twin studies with m/f twins outside of an environment shaped by external imposition of traditional (or otherwise differentiated) gender roles and gender-based expectations and treatments? If so, how was that acheived? If not, you haven't supported the conclusion of differences even if you fix environmental differences.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  Yeah, that minor little detail of all of society generally treating boys and girls differently is slightly hard to really escape.
  - psyc 6y ago
    Right. I can't imagine what "fixed environment" could even possibly be construed to mean. The conscious pressures are unavoidably pervasive, let alone the unconscious ones. Doesn't much matter how the parents parent. Try counting how many times in fictional media women are written to respond to every conflict by collapsing in a puddle of tears, vs men.
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- waterhouse 6y ago
  One thing you can do is look at people of the same sex but with different levels of testosterone. That would effectively control for environment, unless you think that higher testosterone has subtly visible effects that cause others to (unconsciously?) treat them differently—which actually seems likely, if e.g. a high-T girl would tend to do more "rough" activities and consequently wear "tough", non-delicate clothing—but that in itself would be a useful takeaway. Another thing you can do is compare countries, or families, or perhaps schools, that are "more gender-role-restrictive" or "less gender-role-restrictive". Surely if the environment has an impact, then varying the strength of that environment would vary the impact. (Obviously there would be other variables to control for.)

dragonwriter 6y ago

> lots of studies about that. especially twin studies with m/f twins. Twin studies with m/f twins outside of an environment shaped by external imposition of traditional (or otherwise differentiated) gender roles and gender-based expectations and treatments? If so, how was that acheived? If not, you haven't supported the conclusion of differences even if you fix environmental differences.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
Yeah, that minor little detail of all of society generally treating boys and girls differently is slightly hard to really escape.
- psyc 6y ago
  Right. I can't imagine what "fixed environment" could even possibly be construed to mean. The conscious pressures are unavoidably pervasive, let alone the unconscious ones. Doesn't much matter how the parents parent. Try counting how many times in fictional media women are written to respond to every conflict by collapsing in a puddle of tears, vs men.
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deleted 6y ago
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waterhouse 6y ago
One thing you can do is look at people of the same sex but with different levels of testosterone. That would effectively control for environment, unless you think that higher testosterone has subtly visible effects that cause others to (unconsciously?) treat them differently—which actually seems likely, if e.g. a high-T girl would tend to do more "rough" activities and consequently wear "tough", non-delicate clothing—but that in itself would be a useful takeaway. Another thing you can do is compare countries, or families, or perhaps schools, that are "more gender-role-restrictive" or "less gender-role-restrictive". Surely if the environment has an impact, then varying the strength of that environment would vary the impact. (Obviously there would be other variables to control for.)