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There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So f

There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
>> Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem. Because there aren't that many. For people eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, keeping well-fed is a real concern and not everyone is pulling it off. For example, the following article is about infant nutrition but some of its comments apply to adults: Vegetarian diets in childhood and adolescence : Position paper of the nutrition committee, German Society for Paediatric and Adolescent Medicine (DGKJ) In Western countries, vegetarian diets are associated with lower intakes of energy, saturated fatty acids and animal protein and higher intakes of fibre and phytochemicals, compared to omnivorous diets. Whether the corresponding health benefits in vegetarians outweigh the risks of nutrient deficiencies has not been fully clarified. It should be noted that vegetarians often have a higher socioeconomic status, follow a more health-conscious lifestyle with higher physical activity, and refrain from smoking more often than non-vegetarians. The nutritional needs of growing children and adolescents can generally be met through a balanced, vegetable-based diet; however, due to their higher nutrient requirements per kilogramme of body weight, vegetarian children have a higher risk for developing nutrient deficiencies than adults. With a vegetarian diet, the mean intakes of some nutrients, such as the omega-3 fatty acid docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), are lower than in omnivores or those eating fish. For other nutrients, such as iron and zinc, the bioavailability from vegetable foodstuffs is reduced when the intake of phytates and fibre is high; thus, the prevalence of iron deficiency can be increased despite high vitamin C intake. In addition, vitamin B12 is only found in animal-source foods. Vitamin B12 should be supplemented in people of all age groups who follow a strict vegan diet without consuming animal products. A vegetarian diet in childhood and adolescence requires good information and supervision by a paediatrician, if necessary, in cooperation with an appropriately trained dietary specialist. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31722049/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31722049/ See also some relevant articles: Vegetarian diets during pregnancy: effects on the mother's health. A systematic review Note well: Data are scarce, often inconsistent and not homogeneous for many of the topics we considered, mainly because only a few studies have been performed in developed countries, _whereas other studies have derived from developing countries, where vegetarianism can be a proxy indicator of malnutrition._ (my underlining) Vitamin B12 Deficiency Is Prevalent Among Czech Vegans Who Do Not Use Vitamin B12 Supplements https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31835560/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31835560/ etc.
- tomstoms 6y ago
  So we need research and educational efforts into plant based nutrition instead of pumping all tax money into marketing and subsidies for the meat and dairy industry. Big surprise. I’m raising two perfectly healthy vegan kids. They are above average on most factors that matter and continue to amaze people around us when we tell them they are vegan. There is so much misinformation out there, and extrapolating from cases where parents fuck up isn’t helpful. All kinds of people fuck up, vegans or not, be it due to ignorance, incompetence or negligence.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    Indeed, my understanding of the scientific consensus is that a healthy vegan or vegetarian diet is perfectly possible. However the question is what happens when such a diet is forced on a large fraction of some population, either because meat becomes too expensive, or because plant-based alterantives become much cheaper. Are most people who can scarecely afford good nutritious food right now going to be able to maintain a healthy diet when they have even fewer alternatives than currently? Edit: just to clarify in case I'm misunderstood, I'm talking about poor people because I don't worry that I won't be able to afford to eat as much meat as I like (which isn't that much anyway- I'm Greek, so Mediterrannean diet and all that. Like, ~60% of our cuisine is vegan or vegetarian only we call it "food").
    - BlargMcLarg 6y ago
      There absolutely isn't a scientific consensus. If anything, several cases have come up recently to counter the wild acceptance that anyone can live vegan just fine, and further investigation is still necessary. Just recently, the carnivore diet has taken off for multiple people, and even just significantly reducing plant-based foods in favor of animal-based foods is showing to help many people. There's also the theory of anti-nutrients and the importance of genetics which we still don't understand. If there is one field that's an absolute mess, its nutritional sciences. The only thing one can trust is their own experience with any particular diet, their overall well-being and regular health check-ups. What works for one person can be absolutely disastrous for another.
orange_tee 6y ago
The question is how feasible it is? Is it a trivial change in lifestyle? Is it more expensive or cheaper? Can you make it work with the basic fare that you find everywhere, or do you need to shop around for plant products that are more exotic?
- maximente 6y ago
  you wrote: > Malnutrition is also an externality. a poster addressed that, and now you have 4 more questions, none related to nutrition - and, hilariously, prefaced by the common but ridiculous "the question is" (implying there's one) rhetorical device. this style of dialog is really tiring.
  - orange_tee 6y ago
    All the questions are related. I am aware that some people can make it work, but if you remove cheap meat, who do you affect? Poor people. My question is, can poor people also eat a plant based diet with minimal malnutrition risk? All the questions are in reference to that. All I see about plant based diets say the same shit without answering the though questions. They always say, "it's possible to be a health vegan if you watch your nutrition". Well that says precisely nothing. It is a carefully crafted message to not upset militant vegans. The impression I get from that message is that it is far easier to be healthy if you don't avoid meat. You don't have to watch your nutrition much. You just have to use common sense.
    - cung 6y ago
      It doesn’t get much cheaper and healthier than beans and soy. I’ve never felt this good before and the secret seems to be fiber in everything, even the protein.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      It’s very easy to eat healthily and cheaply on a vegetarian or vegan diet. In the UK I used Quorn or lentils as a major protein in a lot of my cooking, now I’m in Berlin I’m alternating between soy chunks, seitan (both of which I have to flavour myself), lentils, tofu, four types of preprepared tinned beans, soy milk, and cheese. Most of these options have cheap subtypes. The most expensive part of my cooking is the fancy stuff that isn’t strictly necessary, like fresh basil or pre-made pastry, and even those are not hugely expensive. > The impression I get from that message is that it is far easier to be healthy if you don't avoid meat. You don't have to watch your nutrition much. The obesity crisis in the developed world, combined with the low rate of no-meat diets, rather contradicts that. > You just have to use common sense. How do you define “common sense” such that this sentence differentiates between the effectiveness of meat and non-meat diets?
dragonwriter 6y ago
> There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world Yes, but they don't tend to eat much in the way of highly-processed meat simulants crafted from plants.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Because they’re new and expensive? And surely that means “sample size small so consequence unstudied” rather than “this stuff is bad to eat”?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Sure, what I'm saying that it also doesn't mean “the existence of health vegetarians is testament to the healthiness of veggie-‘meat’.”
    - bigfudge 6y ago
      But cheap meat isn’t that healthy to start with, so we have quite a low bar to pass.
      - nec4b 6y ago
        Why cheap meat isn't healthy? Are cheap vegetables healthy?
        bigfudge 6y ago
        Good point. I'm not sure expensive meat is that healthy either. We'd probably eat more cheap meat than expensive meat though, so if it's all unhealthy then we might want to think of cheap meat as more-unhealthy.
asdff 6y ago
Vegetarian food that isn't straight up dried commodities like beans either costs a lot of money or takes a lot of time to prepare in comparison to meat, and the working poor of this country have neither.
- adrianN 6y ago
  It takes exactly the same amount of effort to make vegetarian food as it takes to make a dish with meat, cooking some lentils with vegetables and cottage cheese takes literally twenty minutes for example. And we're currently discussing why meat substitutes are expensive and how to lower the prices.
  - thejynxed 6y ago
    I can make a complete surf-n-turf meal for a shorter amount of time than that, on top of the fact many people hate things like lentils and cottage cheese. When discussing meat replacements, you have to not just look at cost, but what people are actually willing to eat and take time making when given any choice whatsoever (and most people will choose things that take less time and do not taste like lentils and cottage cheese).
    - adrianN 6y ago
      Many people hate surf and turf. How about we don't start a pointless discussion about individual foods when there are endless variations at all levels of preparation complexity both with and without meat?
      - z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
        because there isn't an unlimited combination, and despite the faux-vegan outcry you all know your options are pretty terrible as most people don't last on the diet at all.

There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

>> Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem. Because there aren't that many. For people eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, keeping well-fed is a real concern and not everyone is pulling it off. For example, the following article is about infant nutrition but some of its comments apply to adults: Vegetarian diets in childhood and adolescence : Position paper of the nutrition committee, German Society for Paediatric and Adolescent Medicine (DGKJ) In Western countries, vegetarian diets are associated with lower intakes of energy, saturated fatty acids and animal protein and higher intakes of fibre and phytochemicals, compared to omnivorous diets. Whether the corresponding health benefits in vegetarians outweigh the risks of nutrient deficiencies has not been fully clarified. It should be noted that vegetarians often have a higher socioeconomic status, follow a more health-conscious lifestyle with higher physical activity, and refrain from smoking more often than non-vegetarians. The nutritional needs of growing children and adolescents can generally be met through a balanced, vegetable-based diet; however, due to their higher nutrient requirements per kilogramme of body weight, vegetarian children have a higher risk for developing nutrient deficiencies than adults. With a vegetarian diet, the mean intakes of some nutrients, such as the omega-3 fatty acid docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), are lower than in omnivores or those eating fish. For other nutrients, such as iron and zinc, the bioavailability from vegetable foodstuffs is reduced when the intake of phytates and fibre is high; thus, the prevalence of iron deficiency can be increased despite high vitamin C intake. In addition, vitamin B12 is only found in animal-source foods. Vitamin B12 should be supplemented in people of all age groups who follow a strict vegan diet without consuming animal products. A vegetarian diet in childhood and adolescence requires good information and supervision by a paediatrician, if necessary, in cooperation with an appropriately trained dietary specialist. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31722049/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31722049/ See also some relevant articles: Vegetarian diets during pregnancy: effects on the mother's health. A systematic review Note well: Data are scarce, often inconsistent and not homogeneous for many of the topics we considered, mainly because only a few studies have been performed in developed countries, _whereas other studies have derived from developing countries, where vegetarianism can be a proxy indicator of malnutrition._ (my underlining) Vitamin B12 Deficiency Is Prevalent Among Czech Vegans Who Do Not Use Vitamin B12 Supplements https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31835560/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31835560/ etc.

tomstoms 6y ago
So we need research and educational efforts into plant based nutrition instead of pumping all tax money into marketing and subsidies for the meat and dairy industry. Big surprise. I’m raising two perfectly healthy vegan kids. They are above average on most factors that matter and continue to amaze people around us when we tell them they are vegan. There is so much misinformation out there, and extrapolating from cases where parents fuck up isn’t helpful. All kinds of people fuck up, vegans or not, be it due to ignorance, incompetence or negligence.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  Indeed, my understanding of the scientific consensus is that a healthy vegan or vegetarian diet is perfectly possible. However the question is what happens when such a diet is forced on a large fraction of some population, either because meat becomes too expensive, or because plant-based alterantives become much cheaper. Are most people who can scarecely afford good nutritious food right now going to be able to maintain a healthy diet when they have even fewer alternatives than currently? Edit: just to clarify in case I'm misunderstood, I'm talking about poor people because I don't worry that I won't be able to afford to eat as much meat as I like (which isn't that much anyway- I'm Greek, so Mediterrannean diet and all that. Like, ~60% of our cuisine is vegan or vegetarian only we call it "food").
  - BlargMcLarg 6y ago
    There absolutely isn't a scientific consensus. If anything, several cases have come up recently to counter the wild acceptance that anyone can live vegan just fine, and further investigation is still necessary. Just recently, the carnivore diet has taken off for multiple people, and even just significantly reducing plant-based foods in favor of animal-based foods is showing to help many people. There's also the theory of anti-nutrients and the importance of genetics which we still don't understand. If there is one field that's an absolute mess, its nutritional sciences. The only thing one can trust is their own experience with any particular diet, their overall well-being and regular health check-ups. What works for one person can be absolutely disastrous for another.

orange_tee 6y ago

The question is how feasible it is? Is it a trivial change in lifestyle? Is it more expensive or cheaper? Can you make it work with the basic fare that you find everywhere, or do you need to shop around for plant products that are more exotic?

maximente 6y ago
you wrote: > Malnutrition is also an externality. a poster addressed that, and now you have 4 more questions, none related to nutrition - and, hilariously, prefaced by the common but ridiculous "the question is" (implying there's one) rhetorical device. this style of dialog is really tiring.
- orange_tee 6y ago
  All the questions are related. I am aware that some people can make it work, but if you remove cheap meat, who do you affect? Poor people. My question is, can poor people also eat a plant based diet with minimal malnutrition risk? All the questions are in reference to that. All I see about plant based diets say the same shit without answering the though questions. They always say, "it's possible to be a health vegan if you watch your nutrition". Well that says precisely nothing. It is a carefully crafted message to not upset militant vegans. The impression I get from that message is that it is far easier to be healthy if you don't avoid meat. You don't have to watch your nutrition much. You just have to use common sense.
  - cung 6y ago
    It doesn’t get much cheaper and healthier than beans and soy. I’ve never felt this good before and the secret seems to be fiber in everything, even the protein.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    It’s very easy to eat healthily and cheaply on a vegetarian or vegan diet. In the UK I used Quorn or lentils as a major protein in a lot of my cooking, now I’m in Berlin I’m alternating between soy chunks, seitan (both of which I have to flavour myself), lentils, tofu, four types of preprepared tinned beans, soy milk, and cheese. Most of these options have cheap subtypes. The most expensive part of my cooking is the fancy stuff that isn’t strictly necessary, like fresh basil or pre-made pastry, and even those are not hugely expensive. > The impression I get from that message is that it is far easier to be healthy if you don't avoid meat. You don't have to watch your nutrition much. The obesity crisis in the developed world, combined with the low rate of no-meat diets, rather contradicts that. > You just have to use common sense. How do you define “common sense” such that this sentence differentiates between the effectiveness of meat and non-meat diets?

dragonwriter 6y ago

> There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world Yes, but they don't tend to eat much in the way of highly-processed meat simulants crafted from plants.

ben_w 6y ago
Because they’re new and expensive? And surely that means “sample size small so consequence unstudied” rather than “this stuff is bad to eat”?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Sure, what I'm saying that it also doesn't mean “the existence of health vegetarians is testament to the healthiness of veggie-‘meat’.”
  - bigfudge 6y ago
    But cheap meat isn’t that healthy to start with, so we have quite a low bar to pass.
    - nec4b 6y ago
      Why cheap meat isn't healthy? Are cheap vegetables healthy?
      - bigfudge 6y ago
        Good point. I'm not sure expensive meat is that healthy either. We'd probably eat more cheap meat than expensive meat though, so if it's all unhealthy then we might want to think of cheap meat as more-unhealthy.

asdff 6y ago

Vegetarian food that isn't straight up dried commodities like beans either costs a lot of money or takes a lot of time to prepare in comparison to meat, and the working poor of this country have neither.

adrianN 6y ago
It takes exactly the same amount of effort to make vegetarian food as it takes to make a dish with meat, cooking some lentils with vegetables and cottage cheese takes literally twenty minutes for example. And we're currently discussing why meat substitutes are expensive and how to lower the prices.
- thejynxed 6y ago
  I can make a complete surf-n-turf meal for a shorter amount of time than that, on top of the fact many people hate things like lentils and cottage cheese. When discussing meat replacements, you have to not just look at cost, but what people are actually willing to eat and take time making when given any choice whatsoever (and most people will choose things that take less time and do not taste like lentils and cottage cheese).
  - adrianN 6y ago
    Many people hate surf and turf. How about we don't start a pointless discussion about individual foods when there are endless variations at all levels of preparation complexity both with and without meat?
    - z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
      because there isn't an unlimited combination, and despite the faux-vegan outcry you all know your options are pretty terrible as most people don't last on the diet at all.