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Exactly, but I did not advocate for inculcating atheism either. Developped minds should make their own choices once in age to do so, that's the whole point. T

Exactly, but I did not advocate for inculcating atheism either. Developped minds should make their own choices once in age to do so, that's the whole point. Teaching kids agnosticism plus a good dose of Occam's Razor should be good until 16yo.

jedimind 6y ago
Well anyway it's nothing but your opinion and not rooted in any objective truth. Society imposes all sorts of teachings or value judgments upon kids, way before "developed minds can make their own choices" - We say that lying is "wrong" even if it's beneficial for you sometimes to lie and not "well let's let the kids decide if they think lying/stealing/cheating is wrong". Everybody who doesn't live in a cave and learns about religion also quickly learns about critics of religion and thus becomes familiar with the position of atheists and agnostics. Your take is in no way more special than the usual anti-theistic edgy rhetoric trying to pretend and maintain a false sense of "neutrality". Everyone who thinks that they are right on something will try to influence people towards their own worldview, implicitly or explicitly, hidden or obvious, anyone who claims otherwise is just lying to themselves and to others. Some people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people.
- sheepdestroyer 6y ago
  > Most people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people. As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. France's egalitarian principles, on which public schools operate, respect people of all beliefs, and history of religions is taught in schools from junior high.
  - aptidude187 6y ago
    >As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. Last time I checked the french people couldn't care less about something being 'offensive' or not, since it's covered by freedom of speech, that's why they constantly harass minorities by mocking them, their religion and prophets, all in the name of freedom of speech. Forcing girls to remove their hijab is evidence that it's your narrative that is biased and false. Justifying that discrimination is just further evidence of the internalized islamophobia, which has grown to such a degree that you don't even register blatant discrimination as such. >France's egalitarian principles Yea those 'egalitarian principles' that somehow only protect the secular elite, while minorities, using their religion against them, are constantly mocked and bullied in the media and discriminated against in targeted unfair laws - banning the hijab. Those 'egalitarian principles' have to manifest themselves in reality, but they didn't, up till now, they have only proven to be a charade.
    - sheepdestroyer 6y ago
      You're understanding of french values and society, especially of Laïcité [1], couldn't be farther from the trust. Most french people take strongly to "Liberté Égalité Fraternité", and painting the whole country as hostile to minorities is extremely ignorant. It is totally false to say that french freedom of speech permits to "constantly harass minorities by mocking them". In fact our freedom of expression expressely forbids incitement to hatred. From wikipedia [2] : "Press Law of 1881 criminalizes incitement to racial discrimination, hatred, or violence on the basis of one's origin or membership in an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group.A criminal code provision deems it an offense to engage in similar conduct via private communication" However, satyre of ideas/symbols like religions and prophets is not the same thing as mocking people, and is an integral part of what we call laïcité. You are missing the point that people, in their individuality as human beings, deserve respect but abstract concepts do not. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_France https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_France [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_racial_hatred https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_raci...
      - aptidude187 6y ago

jedimind 6y ago

Well anyway it's nothing but your opinion and not rooted in any objective truth. Society imposes all sorts of teachings or value judgments upon kids, way before "developed minds can make their own choices" - We say that lying is "wrong" even if it's beneficial for you sometimes to lie and not "well let's let the kids decide if they think lying/stealing/cheating is wrong". Everybody who doesn't live in a cave and learns about religion also quickly learns about critics of religion and thus becomes familiar with the position of atheists and agnostics. Your take is in no way more special than the usual anti-theistic edgy rhetoric trying to pretend and maintain a false sense of "neutrality". Everyone who thinks that they are right on something will try to influence people towards their own worldview, implicitly or explicitly, hidden or obvious, anyone who claims otherwise is just lying to themselves and to others. Some people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people.

sheepdestroyer 6y ago
> Most people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people. As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. France's egalitarian principles, on which public schools operate, respect people of all beliefs, and history of religions is taught in schools from junior high.
- aptidude187 6y ago
  >As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. Last time I checked the french people couldn't care less about something being 'offensive' or not, since it's covered by freedom of speech, that's why they constantly harass minorities by mocking them, their religion and prophets, all in the name of freedom of speech. Forcing girls to remove their hijab is evidence that it's your narrative that is biased and false. Justifying that discrimination is just further evidence of the internalized islamophobia, which has grown to such a degree that you don't even register blatant discrimination as such. >France's egalitarian principles Yea those 'egalitarian principles' that somehow only protect the secular elite, while minorities, using their religion against them, are constantly mocked and bullied in the media and discriminated against in targeted unfair laws - banning the hijab. Those 'egalitarian principles' have to manifest themselves in reality, but they didn't, up till now, they have only proven to be a charade.
  - sheepdestroyer 6y ago
    You're understanding of french values and society, especially of Laïcité [1], couldn't be farther from the trust. Most french people take strongly to "Liberté Égalité Fraternité", and painting the whole country as hostile to minorities is extremely ignorant. It is totally false to say that french freedom of speech permits to "constantly harass minorities by mocking them". In fact our freedom of expression expressely forbids incitement to hatred. From wikipedia [2] : "Press Law of 1881 criminalizes incitement to racial discrimination, hatred, or violence on the basis of one's origin or membership in an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group.A criminal code provision deems it an offense to engage in similar conduct via private communication" However, satyre of ideas/symbols like religions and prophets is not the same thing as mocking people, and is an integral part of what we call laïcité. You are missing the point that people, in their individuality as human beings, deserve respect but abstract concepts do not. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_France https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_France [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_racial_hatred https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_raci...
    - aptidude187 6y ago