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Just in relation to the United States, I think we could increase vaccination compliance exponentially if getting vaccinated meant no longer having to wear a mas

Just in relation to the United States, I think we could increase vaccination compliance exponentially if getting vaccinated meant no longer having to wear a mask, social distance etc. Where is the carrot?

autarch 6y ago
Where's the stick? How would the US enforce the "get vaccinated or wear a mask" rule? I can't think of any way to do this that isn't massively invasive, and I don't see this as being politically viable in most democratic countries.
- HenryKissinger 6y ago
  Weird. Countries like South Korea and Israel don't need a stick. Their citizens happily volunteer to receive a shot.
  - dmosley 6y ago
    When the username screams satire, but the namesake of the username screams eugenicist...
cortesoft 6y ago
Significantly decreasing your chance of catching an awful, potentially fatal, disease is not a carrot?
- swayvil 6y ago
  Many of us are not onboard with that narrative.
  - yokaze 6y ago
    It's not a narrative, it is a fact.
    - candiodari 6y ago
      Sure but let's be honest here. For <50 year olds the odds of getting a serious infection 0.06% to 0.4% (and presumably 1/10th of that if you don't smoke, have decent weight, not currently ill with something else, ...), which has to be multiplied with the infection rate, at best 10%. So your odds of a negative effect from COVID without vaccine is between 0.04% and 0.006%, and may be much less. So reasonably you should take this as worth ... roughly a tenth of a car maintenance, in time and cost.
      - derekp7 6y ago
        For me, the big risk is transmitting it to someone I care about.
        Capira 6y ago
        In Wuhan they tested about 10 Million people and concluded "There were no positive tests amongst 1,174 close contacts of asymptomatic cases". https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w
      - taylodl 6y ago
        If COVID-19 becomes an annual event like the flu then someday you will be in the 50+ group and suddenly this will matter very much to you. Meanwhile you're in the spreader group infecting those who are 50+ such as your parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and potentially killing them.
      - yokaze 6y ago
        A couple of points: > your odds of a negative effect from COVID without vaccine is between 0.04% and 0.006% And with the vaccine, they are 0%. Or sufficiently close enough, that they weren't registered in the large scale studies of various vaccine makers. > roughly a tenth of a car maintenance, in time and cost And I get the jab for free with paid leave, so for free in time and cost. Why? Because the costs for society are evidently high. Most people have friends or relatives, which are in high risk groups (e.g. parents, grand-parents), and they rather do not want to take the risk of being responsible for their premature and rather gruesome death.
- throwitaway1235 6y ago
  If I'm allowed to answer honestly and not be accused of "trolling", I don't believe the lethality of Covid-19 is high enough to make vaccination itself a carrot on a societal scale, to solve the question this article outlines.
- xboxnolifes 6y ago
  My age group is more likely to die die from ass clots from all the sitting inside I'm doing.
HenryKissinger 6y ago
Pay people $250 to receive the first dose and another $250 for the second dose. In cash, on site, immediately after you get your shot. Individuals aged 16 and over only. No citizenship test: give the money to undocumented immigrants too, as long as they receive the vaccine. Pay for it with deficit spending.
- aethros 6y ago
  That will just result in people who are poor trying to fake Identification in order to get vaccinated 3rd, 4th time. Particularly undocumented immigrants, whom aren't in any databases. The side effects of taking several doses is not known, but is probably not super good for you.
  - newobj 6y ago
    Ah, once again "the poors" are the bad actors who ruin it for everyone, eh?
    - benjohnson 6y ago
      It's wise to look at second order effects - it's one of the primary ways you can sperate good policy from virtue signaling.
- throwitaway1235 6y ago
  Too low. $1000 per shot. And yes cash, no prepaid debit card.
lgg 6y ago
Personally I think not dying of a deadly disease is a pretty good carrot, as is the fact that we get to eventually stop wearing masks, but I accept those are sort of abstract rewards. Unfortunately the what you are suggesting just isn't feasible. Mask wearing is also still necessary because we don't know if vaccinated people are still carriers. It is entirely possible the R number of a vaccinated person not wearing as mask is higher than the R number of an unvaccinated person wearing a mask. Honestly, I think we should just pay people to take it.
Capira 6y ago
Carrots for human guinea pigs is a bit misanthropic, no?
chrismcb 6y ago
There are lots of limitations t giving it the vaccine. The problem is a logistical one, not a carrot one.
kcartlidge 6y ago
> I think we could increase vaccination compliance exponentially if getting vaccinated meant no longer having to wear a mask, social distance The issue here is that the need for wearing a mask is not affected by whether you've been vaccinated. The mask is not mainly about protecting you, it's about protecting others from you. Unless a vaccine also stops transmission entirely (and none of them do though it looks like they will to some extent) you remain a danger to others even if you yourself have been vaccinated. This in fact is my main issue with people refusing a vaccine. If it was just their own health, and there were no other implications, then fine. It isn't though. If large numbers are unvaccinated, then the vaccinated population still can't return to some semblance of normality without risking killing them. (BTW I'm not advocating enforced vaccination, I just hate the effect a large unvaccinated population has on the vaccinated population. And for context/clarity/disclosure, I'll be taking it when offered.)

autarch 6y ago

Where's the stick? How would the US enforce the "get vaccinated or wear a mask" rule? I can't think of any way to do this that isn't massively invasive, and I don't see this as being politically viable in most democratic countries.

HenryKissinger 6y ago
Weird. Countries like South Korea and Israel don't need a stick. Their citizens happily volunteer to receive a shot.
- dmosley 6y ago
  When the username screams satire, but the namesake of the username screams eugenicist...

cortesoft 6y ago

Significantly decreasing your chance of catching an awful, potentially fatal, disease is not a carrot?

swayvil 6y ago
Many of us are not onboard with that narrative.
- yokaze 6y ago
  It's not a narrative, it is a fact.
  - candiodari 6y ago
    Sure but let's be honest here. For <50 year olds the odds of getting a serious infection 0.06% to 0.4% (and presumably 1/10th of that if you don't smoke, have decent weight, not currently ill with something else, ...), which has to be multiplied with the infection rate, at best 10%. So your odds of a negative effect from COVID without vaccine is between 0.04% and 0.006%, and may be much less. So reasonably you should take this as worth ... roughly a tenth of a car maintenance, in time and cost.
    - derekp7 6y ago
      For me, the big risk is transmitting it to someone I care about.
      - Capira 6y ago
        In Wuhan they tested about 10 Million people and concluded "There were no positive tests amongst 1,174 close contacts of asymptomatic cases". https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w
    - taylodl 6y ago
      If COVID-19 becomes an annual event like the flu then someday you will be in the 50+ group and suddenly this will matter very much to you. Meanwhile you're in the spreader group infecting those who are 50+ such as your parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and potentially killing them.
    - yokaze 6y ago
      A couple of points: > your odds of a negative effect from COVID without vaccine is between 0.04% and 0.006% And with the vaccine, they are 0%. Or sufficiently close enough, that they weren't registered in the large scale studies of various vaccine makers. > roughly a tenth of a car maintenance, in time and cost And I get the jab for free with paid leave, so for free in time and cost. Why? Because the costs for society are evidently high. Most people have friends or relatives, which are in high risk groups (e.g. parents, grand-parents), and they rather do not want to take the risk of being responsible for their premature and rather gruesome death.
throwitaway1235 6y ago
If I'm allowed to answer honestly and not be accused of "trolling", I don't believe the lethality of Covid-19 is high enough to make vaccination itself a carrot on a societal scale, to solve the question this article outlines.
xboxnolifes 6y ago
My age group is more likely to die die from ass clots from all the sitting inside I'm doing.

HenryKissinger 6y ago

Pay people $250 to receive the first dose and another $250 for the second dose. In cash, on site, immediately after you get your shot. Individuals aged 16 and over only. No citizenship test: give the money to undocumented immigrants too, as long as they receive the vaccine. Pay for it with deficit spending.

aethros 6y ago
That will just result in people who are poor trying to fake Identification in order to get vaccinated 3rd, 4th time. Particularly undocumented immigrants, whom aren't in any databases. The side effects of taking several doses is not known, but is probably not super good for you.
- newobj 6y ago
  Ah, once again "the poors" are the bad actors who ruin it for everyone, eh?
  - benjohnson 6y ago
    It's wise to look at second order effects - it's one of the primary ways you can sperate good policy from virtue signaling.
throwitaway1235 6y ago
Too low. $1000 per shot. And yes cash, no prepaid debit card.

lgg 6y ago

Personally I think not dying of a deadly disease is a pretty good carrot, as is the fact that we get to eventually stop wearing masks, but I accept those are sort of abstract rewards. Unfortunately the what you are suggesting just isn't feasible. Mask wearing is also still necessary because we don't know if vaccinated people are still carriers. It is entirely possible the R number of a vaccinated person not wearing as mask is higher than the R number of an unvaccinated person wearing a mask. Honestly, I think we should just pay people to take it.

Capira 6y ago

Carrots for human guinea pigs is a bit misanthropic, no?

chrismcb 6y ago

There are lots of limitations t giving it the vaccine. The problem is a logistical one, not a carrot one.

kcartlidge 6y ago

> I think we could increase vaccination compliance exponentially if getting vaccinated meant no longer having to wear a mask, social distance The issue here is that the need for wearing a mask is not affected by whether you've been vaccinated. The mask is not mainly about protecting you, it's about protecting others from you. Unless a vaccine also stops transmission entirely (and none of them do though it looks like they will to some extent) you remain a danger to others even if you yourself have been vaccinated. This in fact is my main issue with people refusing a vaccine. If it was just their own health, and there were no other implications, then fine. It isn't though. If large numbers are unvaccinated, then the vaccinated population still can't return to some semblance of normality without risking killing them. (BTW I'm not advocating enforced vaccination, I just hate the effect a large unvaccinated population has on the vaccinated population. And for context/clarity/disclosure, I'll be taking it when offered.)