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Religion should be reserved for 16yo and more. Forcing it on susceptible children minds should be considered child abuse. There is no freedom of religion if in

Religion should be reserved for 16yo and more. Forcing it on susceptible children minds should be considered child abuse. There is no freedom of religion if indoctrination starts from the earliest and most vulnerable age. This is what's really vile and bigoted here. At least France's public school system aims to be a neutral ground free from this kind of influences

jedimind 6y ago
Atheism should be reserved for 16yo and more. Forcing it on susceptible children minds should be considered child abuse. There is no freedom of religion if indoctrination starts from the earliest and most vulnerable age. This is what's really vile and bigoted here. At least Indonesia's public school system aims to be a neutral ground free from these kind of influences
- bsagdiyev 6y ago
  Turning it around like that doesn’t really work in this case. Is atheism not a religious choice (or lack of) anyways? So his point stands.
  - aptidude187 6y ago
    It works perfectly well. The only thing that stands is your bias.
  - zakki 6y ago
    I don’t think atheism is a religion choice. Religion is about believing the existence of God, the Creator. Atheism is about not believing the existence of God. You choose a religion after you choose you believe in the existence of God. The flipping is acceptable.
    - sheepdestroyer 6y ago
      Flipping with atheism is totally missing the point though.
      - jedimind 6y ago
        Flipping with religion is totally missing the point though. - See? Anyone can make unsubstantiated assertions. Ironically it's you who clearly misses the point by not understanding how the flipping exposes your flimsy and biased narrative. Anyone who visited a french school knows for a fact that it's anything but "neutral", rather actively hostile towards religion. Anything you asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
- sheepdestroyer 6y ago
  Exactly, but I did not advocate for inculcating atheism either. Developped minds should make their own choices once in age to do so, that's the whole point. Teaching kids agnosticism plus a good dose of Occam's Razor should be good until 16yo.
  - jedimind 6y ago
    Well anyway it's nothing but your opinion and not rooted in any objective truth. Society imposes all sorts of teachings or value judgments upon kids, way before "developed minds can make their own choices" - We say that lying is "wrong" even if it's beneficial for you sometimes to lie and not "well let's let the kids decide if they think lying/stealing/cheating is wrong". Everybody who doesn't live in a cave and learns about religion also quickly learns about critics of religion and thus becomes familiar with the position of atheists and agnostics. Your take is in no way more special than the usual anti-theistic edgy rhetoric trying to pretend and maintain a false sense of "neutrality". Everyone who thinks that they are right on something will try to influence people towards their own worldview, implicitly or explicitly, hidden or obvious, anyone who claims otherwise is just lying to themselves and to others. Some people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people.
    - sheepdestroyer 6y ago
      > Most people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people. As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. France's egalitarian principles, on which public schools operate, respect people of all beliefs, and history of religions is taught in schools from junior high.
      - aptidude187 6y ago
        >As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. Last time I checked the french people couldn't care less about something being 'offensive' or not, since it's covered by freedom of speech, that's why they constantly harass minorities by mocking them, their religion and prophets, all in the name of freedom of speech. Forcing girls to remove their hijab is evidence that it's your narrative that is biased and false. Justifying that discrimination is just further evidence of the internalized islamophobia, which has grown to such a degree that you don't even register blatant discrimination as such. >France's egalitarian principles Yea those 'egalitarian principles' that somehow only protect the secular elite, while minorities, using their religion against them, are constantly mocked and bullied in the media and discriminated against in targeted unfair laws - banning the hijab. Those 'egalitarian principles' have to manifest themselves in reality, but they didn't, up till now, they have only proven to be a charade.

jedimind 6y ago

Atheism should be reserved for 16yo and more. Forcing it on susceptible children minds should be considered child abuse. There is no freedom of religion if indoctrination starts from the earliest and most vulnerable age. This is what's really vile and bigoted here. At least Indonesia's public school system aims to be a neutral ground free from these kind of influences

bsagdiyev 6y ago
Turning it around like that doesn’t really work in this case. Is atheism not a religious choice (or lack of) anyways? So his point stands.
- aptidude187 6y ago
  It works perfectly well. The only thing that stands is your bias.
- zakki 6y ago
  I don’t think atheism is a religion choice. Religion is about believing the existence of God, the Creator. Atheism is about not believing the existence of God. You choose a religion after you choose you believe in the existence of God. The flipping is acceptable.
  - sheepdestroyer 6y ago
    Flipping with atheism is totally missing the point though.
    - jedimind 6y ago
      Flipping with religion is totally missing the point though. - See? Anyone can make unsubstantiated assertions. Ironically it's you who clearly misses the point by not understanding how the flipping exposes your flimsy and biased narrative. Anyone who visited a french school knows for a fact that it's anything but "neutral", rather actively hostile towards religion. Anything you asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
sheepdestroyer 6y ago
Exactly, but I did not advocate for inculcating atheism either. Developped minds should make their own choices once in age to do so, that's the whole point. Teaching kids agnosticism plus a good dose of Occam's Razor should be good until 16yo.
- jedimind 6y ago
  Well anyway it's nothing but your opinion and not rooted in any objective truth. Society imposes all sorts of teachings or value judgments upon kids, way before "developed minds can make their own choices" - We say that lying is "wrong" even if it's beneficial for you sometimes to lie and not "well let's let the kids decide if they think lying/stealing/cheating is wrong". Everybody who doesn't live in a cave and learns about religion also quickly learns about critics of religion and thus becomes familiar with the position of atheists and agnostics. Your take is in no way more special than the usual anti-theistic edgy rhetoric trying to pretend and maintain a false sense of "neutrality". Everyone who thinks that they are right on something will try to influence people towards their own worldview, implicitly or explicitly, hidden or obvious, anyone who claims otherwise is just lying to themselves and to others. Some people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people.
  - sheepdestroyer 6y ago
    > Most people claim that France and its school system are "neutral", but anyone who has visited a french school knows this to be untrue, it's clearly hostile towards, not only religion, but religious people. As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. France's egalitarian principles, on which public schools operate, respect people of all beliefs, and history of religions is taught in schools from junior high.
    - aptidude187 6y ago
      >As a French who went to french public schools, I take exception to that, as it is totally false and offensive. Last time I checked the french people couldn't care less about something being 'offensive' or not, since it's covered by freedom of speech, that's why they constantly harass minorities by mocking them, their religion and prophets, all in the name of freedom of speech. Forcing girls to remove their hijab is evidence that it's your narrative that is biased and false. Justifying that discrimination is just further evidence of the internalized islamophobia, which has grown to such a degree that you don't even register blatant discrimination as such. >France's egalitarian principles Yea those 'egalitarian principles' that somehow only protect the secular elite, while minorities, using their religion against them, are constantly mocked and bullied in the media and discriminated against in targeted unfair laws - banning the hijab. Those 'egalitarian principles' have to manifest themselves in reality, but they didn't, up till now, they have only proven to be a charade.