12 ms·

What I Learned in Avalanche School (2019)

55 points by macbookaries 6y ago

chronolitus 6y ago
To this day, I find this is one of the videos which best captures the mental situation and the race against time that is an avalanche rescue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Gei33I2yE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Gei33I2yE
jeffrallen 6y ago
What I find disgraceful about avalanche incidents is the risk that the dead put onto the people charged with coming in to clean up the mess they made. You want to kill yourself? Fine, go jump off a cruise ship in the night. Don't make a helicopter pilot fly in to pick up your stupid corpse.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  There is so much wrong here... but assuming that you are trolling and ignoring you. For anyone else that might be curious: The danger AFTER an avalanche is near zero. There are very rarely second avalanches in the same place, their whole mechanism for sliding is more or less and all or nothing scenario. After an avalanche, the snow is extremely dense and compacted this is part of the problem looking for survivors. It’s hard to dig, you aren’t doing it with hands, it’s not fluffy snow, it’s ice the moment it stops moving. It’s a pain in the ass to look for people in an avi, but it’s not typically some life risking scenario for the people on the correct side of the snow.
  - jeffrallen 6y ago
    Flying helicopters in mountains is risky. Helicopters are dispatched to many avalanche incidents. I live in Switzerland where we have a ridiculous number of avalanche fatalities, which means our rescuers are exposed to mountain risk when they should be sitting back at base waiting for a call to a road traffic accident, or a pediatric inter-hospital transfer, or something actually worth risking their lives for. Off piste skiers who put others at risk are a disgrace, and if my children do it, I will consider my education of them a failure. (An avalanche that arrives onto a maintained ski slope is a different story. Skiers and ski area operators have decided to make the effort, collectively, to mitigate the risks in a scalable manner, and that's fine.)
    - iguy 6y ago
      > our rescuers are exposed to mountain risk when they should be sitting back at base ... inter-hospital transfer ... actually worth risking their lives for. Do you think people who sign up to work for mountain rescue, in Switzerland, secretly wish for a life of sitting around and occasionally driving an ambulance to the next town? Boring jobs are also available... but some people want to be out there, summer and winter, with teamwork, helicopters & adrenaline.
      - Thlom 6y ago
        Chances are they indulge in risky activities on their free time. Especially the guys on the ground. At least in Norway the voluntary alpine rescue groups where born directly from the climbing community.
    - tony_cannistra 6y ago
      Like any form of risk, avalanche risk is able to be mitigated with information and deliberate decision making. Teaching these skills is the primary objective of avalanche education. It seems that your qualms with "off-piste" skiing are primarily as a result of an uneducated public, unable to make these risk-management decisions. I can certainly understand that frustration. But, wouldn't you agree that the solution is in education, rather than judgement?
      - jeffrallen 6y ago
        TFA says that education increases risk. Shrug.
    - hluska 6y ago
      Different SAR regions have different policies regarding recoveries. I can’t speak for Switzerland but know that in Canada, it would be pretty rare for a SAR team to accept more than the average risk of being outside to recover a body. Missing people are different but dead bodies are rarely recovered until conditions improve. I choose not to ski backcountry but have nothing against people who do. They’re athletes doing their thing. But I met a couple of backcountry snowmobilers my last time at the ACC hostel in Canmore and I have never heard such stupidity in my life. I was just about as angry as you are in these comments! :)
- qbasic_forever 6y ago
  Avalanches are not like what you think--they're not only on dangerous, steep mountains. Any slope that's about 30-50 degrees and loaded with unstable snow can slide and carry or kill people. There are hills just a few hundred yards away from the visitor center at Mt. Rainier that have slid and killed snowshoers and skiers.
  - jeffrallen 6y ago
    The avalanches that are killing people all over the place this winter in Switzerland are exactly like TFA says: human-triggered.
neonate 6y ago
https://archive.is/aOw08 https://archive.is/aOw08
tony_cannistra 6y ago
I am an apprentice avalanche educator. This piece does a really nice job summarizing the world of recreational avalanche risk management, most particularly the so-called "human factors" portion. "Nature doesn’t kill people with avalanches. People kill people with avalanches." When I read it last year, I shared it with some experienced friends. Their consensus was similar, and we were grateful for it. It's often difficult to communicate the lengths we go to keep ourselves safe in avalanche terrain to folks unfamiliar, and this article captures the nuance well.
- andrewem 6y ago
  Re-reading this, I again liked this part I recalled from when it came out: “By entering the storefront two hours earlier, by taking an avalanche-safety course, we had statistically increased our chances of being killed in an avalanche. We were more likely to die now than we were at 8 a.m.”
  - tony_cannistra 6y ago
    Totally. The catch-22 of avalanche education.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      Is it clearly just the education, or is it possible that people taking the courses are already at higher risk because of their existing interest in avalanche adjacent activities? Looking at the paper, it talks about people choosing to take risks (vs the education changing their behavior): It appears that formal avalanche education did not make victims in this study less likely to be in accidents. Across all levels of avalanche training, overall exposure scores remained about the same, suggesting that these individuals were in the business of trading off the risks of being in avalanche terrain with the perceived benefits of engaging in their chosen activity. In other words, these victims were apparently using their training to access avalanche terrain during dangerous conditions so they could more fully enjoy their sports. For these people, courses aimed avoiding avalanche hazard would have little utility, and would probably not affect fatality rates in this population significantly. This group would benefit most from courses that provided risk management tools for balancing hazard exposure with recreational objectives. A sobering implication is that such courses might be more successful at extending students’ mobility in avalanche terrain than at reducing the total number of accidents. PDF at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264877015_Heuristic_Traps_in_Recreational_Avalanche_Accidents_Evidence_and_Implications https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264877015_Heuristic...
freetime2 6y ago
> before instantaneously seizing, when it settles, into a substance resembling cement. Recently while clearing some snow off of a roof, I was really surprised at how much the density and consistency of snow can change after dropping from a 10 ft roof. From something light and fluffy to something that a buried person could scarcely wiggle a toe in.
- qbasic_forever 6y ago
  Yes, in my avalanche education class we learned a lot about the experiences of people who were buried. You are totally immobilized in almost any full burial situation. Even worse, you are running through very precious air and generating toxic CO2 with each breath. Statistics show you only have about 20 minutes for someone to find you and dig you out before you're a goner. Snow is nothing to mess with, despite all the fun you can have around it.
qbasic_forever 6y ago
I'm also AIARE 1 certified and use this article to help educate my friends about how to behave after getting vaccinated for, or gaining natural immunity to COVID-19. Do not fall into a false sense of security of invincibility once you gain more knowledge or risk mitigation techniques. Don't be the idiot who got vaccinated and became one of the ~5% that still got infected or spread the disease.
WildGreenLeave 6y ago
This is almost completely off topic, but the title name caught my interest because I've been learning about avalanches. If anyone wants to read more about avalanches and their risks I would highly recommend "Staying alive in avalanche Terrain" by Bruce Temper. I don't think it will replace a course but as someone that wants to get into back country skiing it is a great book.
blendo 6y ago
Helluva read. “When testing snow, Ryan said, you should never look for proof of stability. With stability the goal, you’re testing for permission to do what you want to do. Instead, you should test the snow for proof of instability. You should look and look and look until you find it.” I learned somewhat similar risk analysis as a student pilot. When on your final approach to landing, descending through 500 feet, then 100, then 10, you should always be on a hair trigger, spring-loaded to hit the throttle, abort the landing, and go around. If you’re doing it right, actually making the landing should almost be a surprise! Then again, my flight instructor said a Piper J-3 Cub is best to learn in, because “it goes just barely fast enough to kill you.”
nataz 6y ago
>>People kill people with avalanches That one hits close to home. When I was about 20 yo my friend and I were almost killed in an avalanche. It was an early spring slab climb, after a hard New England winter. Sunny, blue skies, unseasonably warm. As we hiked up to the mountain we had to traverse multiple debris fields with downed trees and burried approach trails. We finally found a clear area under a route, and started up. We were on our second pitch, first hanging belay when we heard it coming. Thankfully the edge missed us by maybe 20 feet. A tree dragged by the snow almost nailed my partner who was on lead. I got hit with a spattering of snow, and rocks, and ice, giving my helmet a good ring. It's impossible to fully describe what came down the mountain. It's like standing on the highway shoulder as a tractor trailer whips by, but x100. It's loud, and fast, but also kinda slow because it just keeps coming down the mountain. We left gear on the wall, and simultaneously repelled down as fast as we could. Made it out without a scratch. Thing is, we should have never been out there. We were familiar with the risks, but after a long winter, with spring having stopped all the snow/ice sports, we were antsy to get out and climb. We walked through multiple debris fields looking for that "safe" route. We both knew better, but we fed off each other's energy and ended up taking a risk that we shouldn't have. Yet, that same mentality also pushed us into some of the most spectacular outdoor moments in my life. They mention it in the article, but there is this idea that it's exceeding your limits recklessly is what gets you killed. But Backcountry sports are all about pushing your limits to do something fantastic that is fundamentally unsafe. The risk is inherent to the experience. I think most serious rock climbers, base jumpers, mountaineering, big wave surfer, wing suit, etc. enthusiasts understand this. Every serious climber I've ever met has personally known someone who has either been terribly injured or killed. You can accept and/or mitigate the risk in these sports, but it's always going to be impossible to transfer. As I've gotten older, I've made the choice to avoid that risk by leaving behind most of those sports. I'm torn how I'll react if my children decide to pick up these hobbies.
- xzel 6y ago
  As someone who has recently started doing more back country snow sports the partner part of this story really rings true and thanks so much for your story. Finding someone who helps complement yourself via risk and not feeding off each other seems to be a lot more important than I've even considered. Really have a strong and open connection, not being worried about how you look, seems like its almost as important as training, because without it, your training will only go so far.

55 points by macbookaries 6y ago

To this day, I find this is one of the videos which best captures the mental situation and the race against time that is an avalanche rescue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Gei33I2yE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Gei33I2yE

jeffrallen 6y ago

What I find disgraceful about avalanche incidents is the risk that the dead put onto the people charged with coming in to clean up the mess they made. You want to kill yourself? Fine, go jump off a cruise ship in the night. Don't make a helicopter pilot fly in to pick up your stupid corpse.

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
There is so much wrong here... but assuming that you are trolling and ignoring you. For anyone else that might be curious: The danger AFTER an avalanche is near zero. There are very rarely second avalanches in the same place, their whole mechanism for sliding is more or less and all or nothing scenario. After an avalanche, the snow is extremely dense and compacted this is part of the problem looking for survivors. It’s hard to dig, you aren’t doing it with hands, it’s not fluffy snow, it’s ice the moment it stops moving. It’s a pain in the ass to look for people in an avi, but it’s not typically some life risking scenario for the people on the correct side of the snow.
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  Flying helicopters in mountains is risky. Helicopters are dispatched to many avalanche incidents. I live in Switzerland where we have a ridiculous number of avalanche fatalities, which means our rescuers are exposed to mountain risk when they should be sitting back at base waiting for a call to a road traffic accident, or a pediatric inter-hospital transfer, or something actually worth risking their lives for. Off piste skiers who put others at risk are a disgrace, and if my children do it, I will consider my education of them a failure. (An avalanche that arrives onto a maintained ski slope is a different story. Skiers and ski area operators have decided to make the effort, collectively, to mitigate the risks in a scalable manner, and that's fine.)
  - iguy 6y ago
    > our rescuers are exposed to mountain risk when they should be sitting back at base ... inter-hospital transfer ... actually worth risking their lives for. Do you think people who sign up to work for mountain rescue, in Switzerland, secretly wish for a life of sitting around and occasionally driving an ambulance to the next town? Boring jobs are also available... but some people want to be out there, summer and winter, with teamwork, helicopters & adrenaline.
    - Thlom 6y ago
      Chances are they indulge in risky activities on their free time. Especially the guys on the ground. At least in Norway the voluntary alpine rescue groups where born directly from the climbing community.
  - tony_cannistra 6y ago
    Like any form of risk, avalanche risk is able to be mitigated with information and deliberate decision making. Teaching these skills is the primary objective of avalanche education. It seems that your qualms with "off-piste" skiing are primarily as a result of an uneducated public, unable to make these risk-management decisions. I can certainly understand that frustration. But, wouldn't you agree that the solution is in education, rather than judgement?
    - jeffrallen 6y ago
      TFA says that education increases risk. Shrug.
  - hluska 6y ago
    Different SAR regions have different policies regarding recoveries. I can’t speak for Switzerland but know that in Canada, it would be pretty rare for a SAR team to accept more than the average risk of being outside to recover a body. Missing people are different but dead bodies are rarely recovered until conditions improve. I choose not to ski backcountry but have nothing against people who do. They’re athletes doing their thing. But I met a couple of backcountry snowmobilers my last time at the ACC hostel in Canmore and I have never heard such stupidity in my life. I was just about as angry as you are in these comments! :)
qbasic_forever 6y ago
Avalanches are not like what you think--they're not only on dangerous, steep mountains. Any slope that's about 30-50 degrees and loaded with unstable snow can slide and carry or kill people. There are hills just a few hundred yards away from the visitor center at Mt. Rainier that have slid and killed snowshoers and skiers.
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  The avalanches that are killing people all over the place this winter in Switzerland are exactly like TFA says: human-triggered.

neonate 6y ago

https://archive.is/aOw08 https://archive.is/aOw08

tony_cannistra 6y ago

I am an apprentice avalanche educator. This piece does a really nice job summarizing the world of recreational avalanche risk management, most particularly the so-called "human factors" portion. "Nature doesn’t kill people with avalanches. People kill people with avalanches." When I read it last year, I shared it with some experienced friends. Their consensus was similar, and we were grateful for it. It's often difficult to communicate the lengths we go to keep ourselves safe in avalanche terrain to folks unfamiliar, and this article captures the nuance well.

andrewem 6y ago
Re-reading this, I again liked this part I recalled from when it came out: “By entering the storefront two hours earlier, by taking an avalanche-safety course, we had statistically increased our chances of being killed in an avalanche. We were more likely to die now than we were at 8 a.m.”
- tony_cannistra 6y ago
  Totally. The catch-22 of avalanche education.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Is it clearly just the education, or is it possible that people taking the courses are already at higher risk because of their existing interest in avalanche adjacent activities? Looking at the paper, it talks about people choosing to take risks (vs the education changing their behavior): It appears that formal avalanche education did not make victims in this study less likely to be in accidents. Across all levels of avalanche training, overall exposure scores remained about the same, suggesting that these individuals were in the business of trading off the risks of being in avalanche terrain with the perceived benefits of engaging in their chosen activity. In other words, these victims were apparently using their training to access avalanche terrain during dangerous conditions so they could more fully enjoy their sports. For these people, courses aimed avoiding avalanche hazard would have little utility, and would probably not affect fatality rates in this population significantly. This group would benefit most from courses that provided risk management tools for balancing hazard exposure with recreational objectives. A sobering implication is that such courses might be more successful at extending students’ mobility in avalanche terrain than at reducing the total number of accidents. PDF at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264877015_Heuristic_Traps_in_Recreational_Avalanche_Accidents_Evidence_and_Implications https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264877015_Heuristic...

freetime2 6y ago

> before instantaneously seizing, when it settles, into a substance resembling cement. Recently while clearing some snow off of a roof, I was really surprised at how much the density and consistency of snow can change after dropping from a 10 ft roof. From something light and fluffy to something that a buried person could scarcely wiggle a toe in.

qbasic_forever 6y ago
Yes, in my avalanche education class we learned a lot about the experiences of people who were buried. You are totally immobilized in almost any full burial situation. Even worse, you are running through very precious air and generating toxic CO2 with each breath. Statistics show you only have about 20 minutes for someone to find you and dig you out before you're a goner. Snow is nothing to mess with, despite all the fun you can have around it.

qbasic_forever 6y ago

I'm also AIARE 1 certified and use this article to help educate my friends about how to behave after getting vaccinated for, or gaining natural immunity to COVID-19. Do not fall into a false sense of security of invincibility once you gain more knowledge or risk mitigation techniques. Don't be the idiot who got vaccinated and became one of the ~5% that still got infected or spread the disease.

WildGreenLeave 6y ago

This is almost completely off topic, but the title name caught my interest because I've been learning about avalanches. If anyone wants to read more about avalanches and their risks I would highly recommend "Staying alive in avalanche Terrain" by Bruce Temper. I don't think it will replace a course but as someone that wants to get into back country skiing it is a great book.

blendo 6y ago

Helluva read. “When testing snow, Ryan said, you should never look for proof of stability. With stability the goal, you’re testing for permission to do what you want to do. Instead, you should test the snow for proof of instability. You should look and look and look until you find it.” I learned somewhat similar risk analysis as a student pilot. When on your final approach to landing, descending through 500 feet, then 100, then 10, you should always be on a hair trigger, spring-loaded to hit the throttle, abort the landing, and go around. If you’re doing it right, actually making the landing should almost be a surprise! Then again, my flight instructor said a Piper J-3 Cub is best to learn in, because “it goes just barely fast enough to kill you.”

nataz 6y ago

>>People kill people with avalanches That one hits close to home. When I was about 20 yo my friend and I were almost killed in an avalanche. It was an early spring slab climb, after a hard New England winter. Sunny, blue skies, unseasonably warm. As we hiked up to the mountain we had to traverse multiple debris fields with downed trees and burried approach trails. We finally found a clear area under a route, and started up. We were on our second pitch, first hanging belay when we heard it coming. Thankfully the edge missed us by maybe 20 feet. A tree dragged by the snow almost nailed my partner who was on lead. I got hit with a spattering of snow, and rocks, and ice, giving my helmet a good ring. It's impossible to fully describe what came down the mountain. It's like standing on the highway shoulder as a tractor trailer whips by, but x100. It's loud, and fast, but also kinda slow because it just keeps coming down the mountain. We left gear on the wall, and simultaneously repelled down as fast as we could. Made it out without a scratch. Thing is, we should have never been out there. We were familiar with the risks, but after a long winter, with spring having stopped all the snow/ice sports, we were antsy to get out and climb. We walked through multiple debris fields looking for that "safe" route. We both knew better, but we fed off each other's energy and ended up taking a risk that we shouldn't have. Yet, that same mentality also pushed us into some of the most spectacular outdoor moments in my life. They mention it in the article, but there is this idea that it's exceeding your limits recklessly is what gets you killed. But Backcountry sports are all about pushing your limits to do something fantastic that is fundamentally unsafe. The risk is inherent to the experience. I think most serious rock climbers, base jumpers, mountaineering, big wave surfer, wing suit, etc. enthusiasts understand this. Every serious climber I've ever met has personally known someone who has either been terribly injured or killed. You can accept and/or mitigate the risk in these sports, but it's always going to be impossible to transfer. As I've gotten older, I've made the choice to avoid that risk by leaving behind most of those sports. I'm torn how I'll react if my children decide to pick up these hobbies.

xzel 6y ago
As someone who has recently started doing more back country snow sports the partner part of this story really rings true and thanks so much for your story. Finding someone who helps complement yourself via risk and not feeding off each other seems to be a lot more important than I've even considered. Really have a strong and open connection, not being worried about how you look, seems like its almost as important as training, because without it, your training will only go so far.