3 ms·

it doesn't require belief. liquidity is liquidity. all the stock options and private equity gamblers require a lot more belief than people compensated in token

it doesn't require belief. liquidity is liquidity. all the stock options and private equity gamblers require a lot more belief than people compensated in tokens. so fascinating how much our realities have diverged in just a few short years, when it is very obvious which employees and contractors are wasting decades of their life for a payday that never comes. didn't plato write about this like 3,000 years ago?

lambda_obrien 6y ago
It doesn't matter what they get paid, you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. The best would be a cooperative, where each employee owns an equal share of the company and has equal decision making ability.
- vmception 6y ago
  > you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. duh? thats how all companies work and every instruction manual for founders dealing with VCs and outside capital is about that, which is what this entire forum is about. don't most of you guys here get "a very generous .005%" of a company which gets diluted three more times before it goes bankrupt? working either half a decade of your life or doing that but also paying for the privilege of buying that .005%? the people getting paid in tokens are in a much better position, way more often, as in liquidity at or above the price of their service most of the time, and people here want to create a reason why that's a problem, really wonder why people choose self-limiting realities. and why is owners in quotes? pretty much all cryptocurrencies are issued by an actual company that has actual shareholders, and books actual revenue for actual shareholders by selling the cryptocurrencies. It's not different than any other kind of organization. The tokens do not convey and securities rights in the company, but they may convey some kind of collective benefit in the token-powered product.
Nextgrid 6y ago
In my case I wasn't talking about stock options, about which I agree with you. However, fiat money (or some kind of commonly-accepted crypto coin) is IMO much better than a very niche/specific token. It's much easier for someone paid in cash to convert that to something else (other currency, labor or goods) than for someone paid in a cryptocurrency (as it's harder to find people accepting it), and even harder for someone paid in some very niche cryptocurrency (by the sounds of it, you are the only one that is willing to take that "corporate scrip" of yours and exchange it for something else - that's much more risk for the contractors than a general purpose (crypto?)currency).
- vmception 6y ago
  if you knew what a liquidity pool is you wouldn't have engaged in this conversation liquidity pools have solved all of this. locked liquidity pools solved it even better. edit for anyone passing by: liquidity pools are a fairly novel concept that allows cryptocurrencies to be exchangeable for more liquid cryptocurrencies without needing to beg exchanges to list your token. It is completely permissionless and has resulted in these systems having more liquidity and volume than non-permissionless systems, throughout 2020. Basically, anyone can form a market and they can broadcast publicly that the market won't go anywhere. This is new to crypto over the last 15 months, and is an improvement to all markets. Comes with its own new issues but the market has chosen it. https://www.coindesk.com/defi-flippening-uniswap-topples-coinbase-trading-volume https://www.coindesk.com/defi-flippening-uniswap-topples-coi... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-16/defi-boom-makes-uniswap-most-sought-after-crypto-exchange https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-16/defi-boom... find a source you respect that shows you the same thing. No other asset class has assurances of secondary markets, even in mature markets people have just had to rely on actively traded markets continuing to exist in perpetuity with market makers simply being there without much understanding of how and why.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    Unless I'm doing something shady or trying to dodge taxes/regulations, I still don't see why I would opt to be paid in any kind of crypto token over fiat, regardless of liquidity pools. With fiat, the banking system and legal system has my back, and technical mistakes can pretty much always be resolved. With crypto, I rarely or never have the legal system protecting me, am more exposed to fraud/shadiness from the various parties involved (exchanges - see Mt.Gox, etc), whoever provides the liquidity pool, etc, and am on the hook for any technical mistakes while doing the transactions (lost the private key or mistyped the address? Tough luck!). As another commenter has said, you'd pay in cash if it was equivalent. Given that you don't, it means you have something to gain from it not being cash. I'm not implying anything illegal here, but paying in "company scrip" clearly gives you an advantage that cash wouldn't. In this case, it seems to be all good as the counterparties are happy with the deal, but I don't buy the whole idea of it being just as good as cash for the aforementioned reasons.
snypher 6y ago
If liquidity was liquidity you'd just pay cash.
- vmception 6y ago
  Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? I don't know, and someone else thinks your comment means something that validates their existing thoughts, when you haven't said anything specific. It should be obvious that the organization with cash, and shares and ability to issue debt, and newly minted tokens as a product, has an amplified ability to obtain goods and services by exchanging a variety of assets instead of just a cash position. That's not different than any other consumer facing organization, so what do you mean?

lambda_obrien 6y ago

It doesn't matter what they get paid, you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. The best would be a cooperative, where each employee owns an equal share of the company and has equal decision making ability.

vmception 6y ago
> you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. duh? thats how all companies work and every instruction manual for founders dealing with VCs and outside capital is about that, which is what this entire forum is about. don't most of you guys here get "a very generous .005%" of a company which gets diluted three more times before it goes bankrupt? working either half a decade of your life or doing that but also paying for the privilege of buying that .005%? the people getting paid in tokens are in a much better position, way more often, as in liquidity at or above the price of their service most of the time, and people here want to create a reason why that's a problem, really wonder why people choose self-limiting realities. and why is owners in quotes? pretty much all cryptocurrencies are issued by an actual company that has actual shareholders, and books actual revenue for actual shareholders by selling the cryptocurrencies. It's not different than any other kind of organization. The tokens do not convey and securities rights in the company, but they may convey some kind of collective benefit in the token-powered product.

Nextgrid 6y ago

In my case I wasn't talking about stock options, about which I agree with you. However, fiat money (or some kind of commonly-accepted crypto coin) is IMO much better than a very niche/specific token. It's much easier for someone paid in cash to convert that to something else (other currency, labor or goods) than for someone paid in a cryptocurrency (as it's harder to find people accepting it), and even harder for someone paid in some very niche cryptocurrency (by the sounds of it, you are the only one that is willing to take that "corporate scrip" of yours and exchange it for something else - that's much more risk for the contractors than a general purpose (crypto?)currency).

vmception 6y ago
if you knew what a liquidity pool is you wouldn't have engaged in this conversation liquidity pools have solved all of this. locked liquidity pools solved it even better. edit for anyone passing by: liquidity pools are a fairly novel concept that allows cryptocurrencies to be exchangeable for more liquid cryptocurrencies without needing to beg exchanges to list your token. It is completely permissionless and has resulted in these systems having more liquidity and volume than non-permissionless systems, throughout 2020. Basically, anyone can form a market and they can broadcast publicly that the market won't go anywhere. This is new to crypto over the last 15 months, and is an improvement to all markets. Comes with its own new issues but the market has chosen it. https://www.coindesk.com/defi-flippening-uniswap-topples-coinbase-trading-volume https://www.coindesk.com/defi-flippening-uniswap-topples-coi... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-16/defi-boom-makes-uniswap-most-sought-after-crypto-exchange https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-16/defi-boom... find a source you respect that shows you the same thing. No other asset class has assurances of secondary markets, even in mature markets people have just had to rely on actively traded markets continuing to exist in perpetuity with market makers simply being there without much understanding of how and why.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Unless I'm doing something shady or trying to dodge taxes/regulations, I still don't see why I would opt to be paid in any kind of crypto token over fiat, regardless of liquidity pools. With fiat, the banking system and legal system has my back, and technical mistakes can pretty much always be resolved. With crypto, I rarely or never have the legal system protecting me, am more exposed to fraud/shadiness from the various parties involved (exchanges - see Mt.Gox, etc), whoever provides the liquidity pool, etc, and am on the hook for any technical mistakes while doing the transactions (lost the private key or mistyped the address? Tough luck!). As another commenter has said, you'd pay in cash if it was equivalent. Given that you don't, it means you have something to gain from it not being cash. I'm not implying anything illegal here, but paying in "company scrip" clearly gives you an advantage that cash wouldn't. In this case, it seems to be all good as the counterparties are happy with the deal, but I don't buy the whole idea of it being just as good as cash for the aforementioned reasons.

snypher 6y ago

If liquidity was liquidity you'd just pay cash.

vmception 6y ago
Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? I don't know, and someone else thinks your comment means something that validates their existing thoughts, when you haven't said anything specific. It should be obvious that the organization with cash, and shares and ability to issue debt, and newly minted tokens as a product, has an amplified ability to obtain goods and services by exchanging a variety of assets instead of just a cash position. That's not different than any other consumer facing organization, so what do you mean?