4 ms·

Say what you will, this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries is doing to children on the behalf of ev

by meibo 6y ago

Say what you will, this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries is doing to children on the behalf of evangelism/religion, they just don't bother hiding it. I wonder about the amount of unrecorded cases though, that "3 since 2015" number seems a bit weird, but I'm not 100% knowledged about the social dynamics in Indonesia.

drno123 6y ago
You seriously compare severe physical punishment with voluntary courses and meetings?
- sradman 6y ago
  Shunning [1] can be devastating and is used as a powerful alternative to physical punishment in pacifist communities like Anabaptists (e.g. Mennonites and Amish). Shunning is like a chronic disease while caning is acute. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
  - betwixthewires 6y ago
    People have the right to decide who they associate with. Communities and organizations have a right to decide who they allow into them. Shunning is very effective in enforcing community standards and behavior. It is one of the fundamental mechanisms inherent to any and all communities. At your job you can get fired. If you contribute to a dev project you must abide the CoC, and if you're a member of some cult or some community like Amish you have to live by community standards or you can go live by whatever standards you want with people that want to live that way with you. It can be devastating, but it is not wrong.
- meibo 6y ago
  If you think that conversion therapy is voluntary in most cases, you're delusional. There's a lot of outside pressure involved and often, you don't really have a chance but to give into that until you can leave your whole family and existing social infrastructure behind.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  I think he's seriously downplaying how awful the public canings are, but you're seriously downplaying how awful conversion therapy is. It's like bad|-----caning------conversion_therapy-----|good and you're making it sound like bad|-----caning----------conversion_therapy-|good Which is total bullshit. Voluntary courses and meetings, my ass.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  I think it's pointless to view it as some sort of competition of awfulness, but you should know that the worst of the conversion therapy places were way more evil than this jaunty characterization. Some of them were using their own invented version of "electro shock therapy" that functionally was just torturing kids. Even the more mild places do things to kids that leads to life long mental health challenges. It shouldn't be trivialized away as all just being a friendly chat among consenting adults.
sradman 6y ago
> this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries Both are illiberal as they punish behavior between consenting adults but extreme corporal punishment is a different level in the spectrum, in my opinion. Singapore is an advanced nation state that canes criminals [1]. One does not have to be for illegal drug trafficking, for instance, to be against caning. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore
- LiberatedLlama 6y ago
  I think it should be a choice given to the convict. Imprisonment, maybe for months or years, or intense pain and life long scaring, but you get to go home at the end of the day and don't spend a significant fraction of your only life in a cell. Depending on the length of the prison sentence, I would opt for the caning.
- betwixthewires 6y ago
  I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I do believe that imprisonment is less humane than corporal punishment, so long as the corporal punishment does not maim, is in line with the crime, and there are no victimless crimes punished with corporal punishment. So for example, I'd be opposed to the death penalty for drug trafficking as it is in Singapore, or the removal of limbs for theft as it is in SA, or any punishment whatsoever for homosexuality, but putting someone in a cage for 10 years for selling crack, or even for armed robbery, separating them from their children who have to grow up without a parent, putting them into a dangerous environment made entirely up of criminals and having to adapt a perpetually criminal and defensive mindset, to me that is more barbaric than beating someone. It is a difficult thing to reason on but it is important to do so.
lottin 6y ago
> this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries is doing to children It's significantly worse, and, besides, conversion "therapy" is not happening in a lot of western countries. Here in western Europe it's unheard of.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > Here in western Europe it's unheard of. Completely untrue. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/09/conversion-therapy-ban-lgbt-community-warwickshire-pride-religion-church-daniel-browne/ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/09/conversion-therapy-ban... https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/graham-linehan-trans-gender-critical-conversion-therapy-newsnight-a9334321.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/graham-linehan-trans-ge...

by meibo 6y ago

drno123 6y ago

You seriously compare severe physical punishment with voluntary courses and meetings?

sradman 6y ago
Shunning [1] can be devastating and is used as a powerful alternative to physical punishment in pacifist communities like Anabaptists (e.g. Mennonites and Amish). Shunning is like a chronic disease while caning is acute. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
- betwixthewires 6y ago
  People have the right to decide who they associate with. Communities and organizations have a right to decide who they allow into them. Shunning is very effective in enforcing community standards and behavior. It is one of the fundamental mechanisms inherent to any and all communities. At your job you can get fired. If you contribute to a dev project you must abide the CoC, and if you're a member of some cult or some community like Amish you have to live by community standards or you can go live by whatever standards you want with people that want to live that way with you. It can be devastating, but it is not wrong.
meibo 6y ago
If you think that conversion therapy is voluntary in most cases, you're delusional. There's a lot of outside pressure involved and often, you don't really have a chance but to give into that until you can leave your whole family and existing social infrastructure behind.
renewiltord 6y ago
I think he's seriously downplaying how awful the public canings are, but you're seriously downplaying how awful conversion therapy is. It's like bad|-----caning------conversion_therapy-----|good and you're making it sound like bad|-----caning----------conversion_therapy-|good Which is total bullshit. Voluntary courses and meetings, my ass.
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
I think it's pointless to view it as some sort of competition of awfulness, but you should know that the worst of the conversion therapy places were way more evil than this jaunty characterization. Some of them were using their own invented version of "electro shock therapy" that functionally was just torturing kids. Even the more mild places do things to kids that leads to life long mental health challenges. It shouldn't be trivialized away as all just being a friendly chat among consenting adults.

sradman 6y ago

> this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries Both are illiberal as they punish behavior between consenting adults but extreme corporal punishment is a different level in the spectrum, in my opinion. Singapore is an advanced nation state that canes criminals [1]. One does not have to be for illegal drug trafficking, for instance, to be against caning. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore

LiberatedLlama 6y ago
I think it should be a choice given to the convict. Imprisonment, maybe for months or years, or intense pain and life long scaring, but you get to go home at the end of the day and don't spend a significant fraction of your only life in a cell. Depending on the length of the prison sentence, I would opt for the caning.
betwixthewires 6y ago
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I do believe that imprisonment is less humane than corporal punishment, so long as the corporal punishment does not maim, is in line with the crime, and there are no victimless crimes punished with corporal punishment. So for example, I'd be opposed to the death penalty for drug trafficking as it is in Singapore, or the removal of limbs for theft as it is in SA, or any punishment whatsoever for homosexuality, but putting someone in a cage for 10 years for selling crack, or even for armed robbery, separating them from their children who have to grow up without a parent, putting them into a dangerous environment made entirely up of criminals and having to adapt a perpetually criminal and defensive mindset, to me that is more barbaric than beating someone. It is a difficult thing to reason on but it is important to do so.

lottin 6y ago

> this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries is doing to children It's significantly worse, and, besides, conversion "therapy" is not happening in a lot of western countries. Here in western Europe it's unheard of.

DanBC 6y ago
> Here in western Europe it's unheard of. Completely untrue. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/09/conversion-therapy-ban-lgbt-community-warwickshire-pride-religion-church-daniel-browne/ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/11/09/conversion-therapy-ban... https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/graham-linehan-trans-gender-critical-conversion-therapy-newsnight-a9334321.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/graham-linehan-trans-ge...