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This is good news. Indonesia has been on a road to become quite intolerant of other religions over the past years with some very tragic outcomes like lynchings.

This is good news. Indonesia has been on a road to become quite intolerant of other religions over the past years with some very tragic outcomes like lynchings. I have little hope that this is a sign of that process slowing down or halting or even reversing, but a win is a win I guess.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago
They just whipped two gay men in the streets after a burglar broke into their home and caught them in bed together. A win is a win but this isn’t a huge milestone IMHO.
- lainga 6y ago
  Are you and GP thinking of all Indonesia or just Aceh?
  - FriedrichN 6y ago
    Aceh is especially bad, but it's happening outside of Aceh as well. There's mob violence against Christians and non-Sunni muslims, they imprisoned a Christian governor of Jakarta over "blasphemy", the state pretty much does not hire non-muslims anymore.
    - zakki 6y ago
      You should update/add your information source. There has been many non moslems, including Christian, become minister or governor or head of city/town all over Indonesia. Since its independence until now. In the beginning of current presidential period (2019-2024) there were 5 ministers as a Christian. However last year 1 is replaced due to unpopular take on COVID-19 handling and another 1 is sacked due to corruption on social programs during Jakarta’s lockdown last year. Even the governor you talked about is now becoming a commissioner for a state owned oil company. Imagine. someone out of jail, a Christian but hold a prestigious position in a state owned oil company.
      - FriedrichN 6y ago
        Points taken. It's not all bad, it's nowhere near the intolerance we see in some other countries. I'm just extra concerned about Indonesia because it used to be a very tolerant country. And it's not just through news about how the government wants to ban 'gay emojis', I have friends who live(d) there and/or have family there and they also tell me about how there are preachers from Saudi Arabia walking around in the kampungs teaching a far stricter version of Islam. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/indonesia-bans-gay-emoji-a6872086.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/indonesia-bans...
  - Quarrelsome 6y ago
    afaik Aceh and Jakarta are worlds apart in terms of diversity/tolerance.
- sradman 6y ago
  Indonesia's Aceh flogs two men for having sex [1]: > They were reported by neighbours back in November. > The two men, aged 27 and 29, winced in pain as they were whipped by robed and masked enforcers who lashed the men on their backs with a rattan stick. Perhaps "robed" was conflated with "robbed". Appalling nonetheless: > This is believed to be the third time gay men have been caned in Aceh since Islamic laws outlawing homosexuality were introduced in 2015. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55846699 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55846699
  - meibo 6y ago
    Say what you will, this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries is doing to children on the behalf of evangelism/religion, they just don't bother hiding it. I wonder about the amount of unrecorded cases though, that "3 since 2015" number seems a bit weird, but I'm not 100% knowledged about the social dynamics in Indonesia.
    - drno123 6y ago
      You seriously compare severe physical punishment with voluntary courses and meetings?
      - sradman 6y ago
        Shunning [1] can be devastating and is used as a powerful alternative to physical punishment in pacifist communities like Anabaptists (e.g. Mennonites and Amish). Shunning is like a chronic disease while caning is acute. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
        betwixthewires 6y ago
        People have the right to decide who they associate with. Communities and organizations have a right to decide who they allow into them. Shunning is very effective in enforcing community standards and behavior. It is one of the fundamental mechanisms inherent to any and all communities. At your job you can get fired. If you contribute to a dev project you must abide the CoC, and if you're a member of some cult or some community like Amish you have to live by community standards or you can go live by whatever standards you want with people that want to live that way with you. It can be devastating, but it is not wrong.
- sprash 6y ago
  Freedom of religion is all fun and games until you move into a Muslim neighborhood.
  - sheepdestroyer 6y ago
    - into a religious neighborhood. There, fixed it for you.
    - bsagdiyev 6y ago
      I’m not sure, the Catholics up the street haven’t whipped any gay people lately as far as I know, so the comparison you make isn’t the same.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  It is because of all that stuff that this is a huge milestone! Like, that means that the faction there that wants to preserve people's rights has won a pretty significant victory against the faction that wants to whip gay people. These two groups are highly unlikely to have any overlap. There is some degree of group attribution error in your comment that is making it hard for you to tease signal out of events. But I suppose whether something is a milestone or not is sort of subjective when you're temporally proximate to the event. So I'll leave off.
- fakedang 6y ago
  That was in Aceh. Aceh is crazytown, even for someone like me who was raised in a heavily orthodox Muslim family. Aceh is maybe Saudi Arabia x2.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago

They just whipped two gay men in the streets after a burglar broke into their home and caught them in bed together. A win is a win but this isn’t a huge milestone IMHO.

lainga 6y ago
Are you and GP thinking of all Indonesia or just Aceh?
- FriedrichN 6y ago
  Aceh is especially bad, but it's happening outside of Aceh as well. There's mob violence against Christians and non-Sunni muslims, they imprisoned a Christian governor of Jakarta over "blasphemy", the state pretty much does not hire non-muslims anymore.
  - zakki 6y ago
    You should update/add your information source. There has been many non moslems, including Christian, become minister or governor or head of city/town all over Indonesia. Since its independence until now. In the beginning of current presidential period (2019-2024) there were 5 ministers as a Christian. However last year 1 is replaced due to unpopular take on COVID-19 handling and another 1 is sacked due to corruption on social programs during Jakarta’s lockdown last year. Even the governor you talked about is now becoming a commissioner for a state owned oil company. Imagine. someone out of jail, a Christian but hold a prestigious position in a state owned oil company.
    - FriedrichN 6y ago
      Points taken. It's not all bad, it's nowhere near the intolerance we see in some other countries. I'm just extra concerned about Indonesia because it used to be a very tolerant country. And it's not just through news about how the government wants to ban 'gay emojis', I have friends who live(d) there and/or have family there and they also tell me about how there are preachers from Saudi Arabia walking around in the kampungs teaching a far stricter version of Islam. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/indonesia-bans-gay-emoji-a6872086.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/indonesia-bans...
- Quarrelsome 6y ago
  afaik Aceh and Jakarta are worlds apart in terms of diversity/tolerance.
sradman 6y ago
Indonesia's Aceh flogs two men for having sex [1]: > They were reported by neighbours back in November. > The two men, aged 27 and 29, winced in pain as they were whipped by robed and masked enforcers who lashed the men on their backs with a rattan stick. Perhaps "robed" was conflated with "robbed". Appalling nonetheless: > This is believed to be the third time gay men have been caned in Aceh since Islamic laws outlawing homosexuality were introduced in 2015. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55846699 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55846699
- meibo 6y ago
  Say what you will, this isn't too different to what ex-gay/re-education that is happening in a lot of western countries is doing to children on the behalf of evangelism/religion, they just don't bother hiding it. I wonder about the amount of unrecorded cases though, that "3 since 2015" number seems a bit weird, but I'm not 100% knowledged about the social dynamics in Indonesia.
  - drno123 6y ago
    You seriously compare severe physical punishment with voluntary courses and meetings?
    - sradman 6y ago
      Shunning [1] can be devastating and is used as a powerful alternative to physical punishment in pacifist communities like Anabaptists (e.g. Mennonites and Amish). Shunning is like a chronic disease while caning is acute. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
      - betwixthewires 6y ago
        People have the right to decide who they associate with. Communities and organizations have a right to decide who they allow into them. Shunning is very effective in enforcing community standards and behavior. It is one of the fundamental mechanisms inherent to any and all communities. At your job you can get fired. If you contribute to a dev project you must abide the CoC, and if you're a member of some cult or some community like Amish you have to live by community standards or you can go live by whatever standards you want with people that want to live that way with you. It can be devastating, but it is not wrong.
sprash 6y ago
Freedom of religion is all fun and games until you move into a Muslim neighborhood.
- sheepdestroyer 6y ago
  - into a religious neighborhood. There, fixed it for you.
  - bsagdiyev 6y ago
    I’m not sure, the Catholics up the street haven’t whipped any gay people lately as far as I know, so the comparison you make isn’t the same.
renewiltord 6y ago
It is because of all that stuff that this is a huge milestone! Like, that means that the faction there that wants to preserve people's rights has won a pretty significant victory against the faction that wants to whip gay people. These two groups are highly unlikely to have any overlap. There is some degree of group attribution error in your comment that is making it hard for you to tease signal out of events. But I suppose whether something is a milestone or not is sort of subjective when you're temporally proximate to the event. So I'll leave off.
fakedang 6y ago
That was in Aceh. Aceh is crazytown, even for someone like me who was raised in a heavily orthodox Muslim family. Aceh is maybe Saudi Arabia x2.