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I already pay contractors with corporate scrip every time some telegram moderator wants to get payment in one of my project’s tokens. I think it’s funny and it

I already pay contractors with corporate scrip every time some telegram moderator wants to get payment in one of my project’s tokens. I think it’s funny and it works. It’s very convenient because I keep my actual revenue, I haven’t diluted any shares of the company, and the payment is still a deductible expense that occurred. (The best analogy is if Sony paid a $600 invoice with a PS5 and the contractor accepted that, or if Nike paid a sneakerhead influencer with shoes. These are all liquid assets easily convertible to cash at the same price they were earned). The liquidity possibilities is what makes this different than prior corporate scrip and how that was a pejorative. In some circumstances I’m the only contributor to the liquidity pool so they’re selling directly back to me. Some think they are punishing me by selling when they don’t believe in an outcome, and I’m like you just sold ... to me ... at a lower price than you earned it.... paying contractors that immediately sell is more like having a put on your own token! it’s an unparalleled amount of control. Not too far of a stretch to bring back the corporate towns too. The 20s are going to be fascinating.

naveen99 6y ago
Only if there was a way for companies to pay employees with equity or options...
- vmception 6y ago
  If you read closely my post covers the advantages of not doing that > ... I haven’t diluted any shares of the company ... Non-dilutive, non-cash compensation, which is often times more liquid than equity Best of all worlds
  - minitoar 6y ago
    I don’t get why they accept your non-cash comp.
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      The author mentions "tokens" so I suspect this is crypto-related and the contractors are "true believers".
      - vmception 6y ago
        it doesn't require belief. liquidity is liquidity. all the stock options and private equity gamblers require a lot more belief than people compensated in tokens. so fascinating how much our realities have diverged in just a few short years, when it is very obvious which employees and contractors are wasting decades of their life for a payday that never comes. didn't plato write about this like 3,000 years ago?
        lambda_obrien 6y ago
        It doesn't matter what they get paid, you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. The best would be a cooperative, where each employee owns an equal share of the company and has equal decision making ability.
        vmception 6y ago
        > you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. duh? thats how all companies work and every instruction manual for founders dealing with VCs and outside capital is about that, which is what this entire forum is about. don't most of you guys here get "a very generous .005%" of a company which gets diluted three more times before it goes bankrupt? working either half a decade of your life or doing that but also paying for the privilege of buying that .005%? the people getting paid in tokens are in a much better position, way more often, as in liquidity at or above the price of their service most of the time, and people here want to create a reason why that's a problem, really wonder why people choose self-limiting realities. and why is owners in quotes? pretty much all cryptocurrencies are issued by an actual company that has actual shareholders, and books actual revenue for actual shareholders by selling the cryptocurrencies. It's not different than any other kind of organization. The tokens do not convey and securities rights in the company, but they may convey some kind of collective benefit in the token-powered product.
    - vmception 6y ago
      Because that’s what is negotiated and it is easily exchangeable to cash if they desire.
      - minitoar 6y ago
        Do they negotiate a higher fee due to non-cash comp?
        vmception 6y ago
        from my experience it depends on the sentiment, the nature of the service (ie. a one-off action, a monthly service, a monthly service paid in advance, discounts), the depth of liquidity, and the contractor
        minitoar 6y ago
        So...yes?
        vmception 6y ago
        sometimes lower, sometimes higher, sometimes the same
        minitoar 6y ago
        What is the scenario where someone negotiates lower total comp in exchange for being paid in tokens?
    - jlokier 6y ago
      I can answer that from personal experience: Because it's what's offered and is a good deal. I'm about to start a long-term role where non-cash crypto-tokens are part of the compensation. I'm not a "true believer" at all. I don't have any crypto at the moment, don't have a wallet yet, and to be honest it's just going to complicate my company accounts and taxation. I do know the field, and I'm sufficiently skeptical to remain not a true believer :-) Good old fiat would certainly be more convenient, and I could invest that in crypto in my own time and on my own terms if I wanted to do that. So why accept? Because I like the company (a lot so far) and the people, the company seems refreshing and well-architected, I'm looking forward to working with the people there, they are working on interesting and worthwhile problems. I anticipate I'm going to learn a lot working there, not only technical, but about real world non-technical social issues I'm not that familiar with at the moment. And the pay is good, or at least good enough. (I know I can get more by chasing consultancy contracts, but I'm taking a break from that to go all-in on a single company's product development). Generally the same sorts of reasons for choosing any job. Despite not being a "true believer" in cryptocurrency, I think I bring a grounded and mature view of the more general (non-currency) crypto ecosystem the company is working with, which will hopefully mean I contribute in a grounded and mature way to the company conversations, and in a better product for real world applications in the long run. The fact some of the pay is in crypto-tokens is understandable given the company's mission as well as its source of funding, and I'm not unhappy with that. But I wouldn't choose it to be honest if it were a genuinely neutral option on the table. But in exactly the same way, I wouldn't choose RSUs or stock options with another company if equivalent (fiat) cash were available instead. In many ways liquid crypto-tokens are much better than stock options! As a result, back to the point about corporate scrip. I think we are seeing a rise in scrip-like tokens, but, the GP is right, liquidity changes things. It gives back much of the autonomy that traditional scrip takes away. I know I can, in principle, trade the scrip for cash at any time. The volatility is not great. The uncertainty around long term value of that portion of income is not great (although I do get to choose the proportion over a substantial range, and change it when I want). But I've often been paid in international currencies too, and similar issues apply to that. There's some price volatility, it's worth keeping a balance in each currency for expenses in those currencies, and the company accounting and taxation for a small company paid a range of international currencies whose value fluctuates is also annoying. So being paid in crypto-tokens, a kind of liquid corporate scrip, is not especially more bothersome than being paid in a range of international currencies. It's mostly just different practicalities.

naveen99 6y ago

Only if there was a way for companies to pay employees with equity or options...

vmception 6y ago
If you read closely my post covers the advantages of not doing that > ... I haven’t diluted any shares of the company ... Non-dilutive, non-cash compensation, which is often times more liquid than equity Best of all worlds
- minitoar 6y ago
  I don’t get why they accept your non-cash comp.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    The author mentions "tokens" so I suspect this is crypto-related and the contractors are "true believers".
    - vmception 6y ago
      it doesn't require belief. liquidity is liquidity. all the stock options and private equity gamblers require a lot more belief than people compensated in tokens. so fascinating how much our realities have diverged in just a few short years, when it is very obvious which employees and contractors are wasting decades of their life for a payday that never comes. didn't plato write about this like 3,000 years ago?
      - lambda_obrien 6y ago
        It doesn't matter what they get paid, you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. The best would be a cooperative, where each employee owns an equal share of the company and has equal decision making ability.
        vmception 6y ago
        > you and other company "owners" just want to keep as much of the pie as possible. duh? thats how all companies work and every instruction manual for founders dealing with VCs and outside capital is about that, which is what this entire forum is about. don't most of you guys here get "a very generous .005%" of a company which gets diluted three more times before it goes bankrupt? working either half a decade of your life or doing that but also paying for the privilege of buying that .005%? the people getting paid in tokens are in a much better position, way more often, as in liquidity at or above the price of their service most of the time, and people here want to create a reason why that's a problem, really wonder why people choose self-limiting realities. and why is owners in quotes? pretty much all cryptocurrencies are issued by an actual company that has actual shareholders, and books actual revenue for actual shareholders by selling the cryptocurrencies. It's not different than any other kind of organization. The tokens do not convey and securities rights in the company, but they may convey some kind of collective benefit in the token-powered product.
  - vmception 6y ago
    Because that’s what is negotiated and it is easily exchangeable to cash if they desire.
    - minitoar 6y ago
      Do they negotiate a higher fee due to non-cash comp?
      - vmception 6y ago
        from my experience it depends on the sentiment, the nature of the service (ie. a one-off action, a monthly service, a monthly service paid in advance, discounts), the depth of liquidity, and the contractor
        minitoar 6y ago
        So...yes?
        vmception 6y ago
        sometimes lower, sometimes higher, sometimes the same
        minitoar 6y ago
        What is the scenario where someone negotiates lower total comp in exchange for being paid in tokens?
  - jlokier 6y ago
    I can answer that from personal experience: Because it's what's offered and is a good deal. I'm about to start a long-term role where non-cash crypto-tokens are part of the compensation. I'm not a "true believer" at all. I don't have any crypto at the moment, don't have a wallet yet, and to be honest it's just going to complicate my company accounts and taxation. I do know the field, and I'm sufficiently skeptical to remain not a true believer :-) Good old fiat would certainly be more convenient, and I could invest that in crypto in my own time and on my own terms if I wanted to do that. So why accept? Because I like the company (a lot so far) and the people, the company seems refreshing and well-architected, I'm looking forward to working with the people there, they are working on interesting and worthwhile problems. I anticipate I'm going to learn a lot working there, not only technical, but about real world non-technical social issues I'm not that familiar with at the moment. And the pay is good, or at least good enough. (I know I can get more by chasing consultancy contracts, but I'm taking a break from that to go all-in on a single company's product development). Generally the same sorts of reasons for choosing any job. Despite not being a "true believer" in cryptocurrency, I think I bring a grounded and mature view of the more general (non-currency) crypto ecosystem the company is working with, which will hopefully mean I contribute in a grounded and mature way to the company conversations, and in a better product for real world applications in the long run. The fact some of the pay is in crypto-tokens is understandable given the company's mission as well as its source of funding, and I'm not unhappy with that. But I wouldn't choose it to be honest if it were a genuinely neutral option on the table. But in exactly the same way, I wouldn't choose RSUs or stock options with another company if equivalent (fiat) cash were available instead. In many ways liquid crypto-tokens are much better than stock options! As a result, back to the point about corporate scrip. I think we are seeing a rise in scrip-like tokens, but, the GP is right, liquidity changes things. It gives back much of the autonomy that traditional scrip takes away. I know I can, in principle, trade the scrip for cash at any time. The volatility is not great. The uncertainty around long term value of that portion of income is not great (although I do get to choose the proportion over a substantial range, and change it when I want). But I've often been paid in international currencies too, and similar issues apply to that. There's some price volatility, it's worth keeping a balance in each currency for expenses in those currencies, and the company accounting and taxation for a small company paid a range of international currencies whose value fluctuates is also annoying. So being paid in crypto-tokens, a kind of liquid corporate scrip, is not especially more bothersome than being paid in a range of international currencies. It's mostly just different practicalities.