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You definitely can't call yourself a "doctor" in the U.S. just by virtue of having a law degree (unless you also have a Ph.D.)
by D13Fd 6y ago
You definitely can't call yourself a "doctor" in the U.S. just by virtue of having a law degree (unless you also have a Ph.D.)
- Sharlin 6y agoBut the GP was talking about having a JD, not just any law degree. Dr. Biden does not have a PhD (or an MD), which led to the mentioned controversy, but the majority opinion seems to be that any doctorate (at least a non-honorary one) confers the right to use “Dr.”, right?
- D13Fd 6y agoNo. JD is the standard and lowest law degree (the other being the uncommon LLM, which requires more education than a JD but is not used in most fields of law), and does not allow you to call yourself “doctor.”
- chrisseaton 6y agoI'm sure you're right - but do you know why that is? It is a doctorate isn't it? What makes some doctorates qualify and others not?
- D13Fd 6y agoNo. It may be because JD’s are so common and easy to earn relative to a Ph.D. (at least a hard science Ph.D.). The JD itself is not meaningful for the practice of law - its passing the bar that matters. But that’s true for other professions too (doctors).
- sithadmin 6y agoThe primary reason is that it’s simply not customary. That’s it. It’s no deeper than that. But JD programs also differ significantly from academically oriented PhD programs in that the overwhelming majority of them focus on generalized practical knowledge and skills alone. Most don’t even properly prepare graduates for local licensure exams, forcing them to do yet another prep course (or at least intense self-study) prior to practicing their trade. In this regard, it’s a degree that’s more similar to an MBA than it is a PhD, and while it shares traits with MD programs, MD programs have a much deeper emphasis on theory, and a much deeper emphasis on practice and ethics than you’ll see in any JD program. That’s not to say that there aren’t folks that do a JD but proceed along an “academic” track intended to focus on original research and prepare for legal scholarship. These people exist, but they are a tiny minority among JD candidates.
- ghaff 6y agoIt's all about custom at the end of the day. Using Dr. for PhD/ScD (and other research doctorates) is a bit of a funny case in the US because depending on the context using it might seem the most natural thing in the world or it can seem out of place to some. But, for that matter, maybe you think it makes sense to put PE and whatever certs you have after your name in professional emails. But it will seem odd to some and certainly would seem out of place in a personal email.
- rootusrootus 6y ago> maybe you think it makes sense to put PE and whatever certs you have after your name in professional emails I've always thought that to be a bit weird. The only time it makes sense to me is in official communication where you are specifically asserting your expertise. My manager has MBA after his name in all the emails he sends. IMO that comes off as really pretentious. But maybe this should be true of most titles. Should a medical doctor point out their title at all times, even when they're not representing themselves as anything other than average citizen?
- ghaff 6y agoLicensure, like PE, CPA, CFA, MD, DO, etc. is definitely relevant in a lot of context, so I'd actually expect it to be listed on a website in a lot of cases and probably part an email sig. Doctor for medically-oriented professional degrees is somewhat orthogonal but it is customary. PhDs is more questionable outside of academia (where people deeply care about this sort of thing). But MBA? Outside of an alumni context I'm not sure I have ever seen someone do that. (This isn't a particular poke at MBAs. I'd feel the same way about an M.Eng.)
- valarauko 6y agoI have a research PhD & work at a medical college in the US. While on official correspondence they note my title as Dr., it's not customary for anybody, PhD or MD, to use Dr. otherwise. The names on office doors are just "Jane Doe, MD", etc.
- mebassett 6y agoit's a doctorate in name only. It is actually a professional degree. In other common law countries the first legal degree is an LLB. Unlike other doctoral degrees, it does not signify that the holder can lecture or practice medicine or other research in the field. confusingly, there are PhDs in law, LLDs (doctor of laws) and even LLMs (master of laws) that are sometimes higher than the JD.
- leephillips 6y agoIt’s not a doctorate, even though the d stands for doctor. The J.D. is kind of an odd special case. The use of Dr. for a J.D. would be contrary to custom and make no sense. It is a vocational certification, requiring no research nor contribution to knowledge—just two to three years of classwork.
- Retric 6y agoDoctor on it’s own doesn’t require research. What needs research is Ph.D for “doctor of philosophy” more specifically “philosophiae doctor.” M.D. is “Medical Doctor” other examples are D.M.A. “Doctor of Musical Arts” for music performers and Ed.D. “Doctor of Education” which is closest to the original meaning of Doctor. You also have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Arts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Arts and a few others. PS: While the Ph.D. is the most common doctoral degree in the United States, the U.S. Department of Education and the National Science Foundation recognize numerous research-oriented doctoral degrees such as the D.A. as "equivalent",[1][2] and do not discriminate between them.
- barry-cotter 6y ago> It is a vocational certification, requiring no research nor contribution to knowledge—just two to three years of classwork. The same is true of an M.D. though with four years. They’re both doctorates.
- wl 6y agoAn MD is the first degree one earns in the subject. It takes four years to earn. It used to be a bachelor's degree: MB or MBBS. In the modern era, the premed requirements pushing total medical education to five and a half years probably justifies making the degree a master's degree. The residencies and fellowships that physicians do after earning the MD that are virtually required for any physician to practice probably make calling physicians "doctor" appropriate. Still, calling the MD a doctorate is questionable.
- leephillips 6y ago
- tiahura 6y agoAn attorney (under the model rules) can call themselves doctor (your state may vary). No one does because it would get you laughed at by other attorneys (as we should do to Dr. Biden).
- ecopoesis 6y agoWhy should we laugh at Dr. Biden? She has the terminal degree in her field, only it happens to to not be a PhD. She is a professor. Should we also laugh at folks who graduate from MIT’s doctoral programs and want to be addressed as “Doctor” even though their degree might be a ScD?
- chrisseaton 6y ago> She is a professor. Shouldn't we call her 'Professor' then, since that outranks 'Doctor'?
- ghaff 6y agoI don't know about "outranks" in any formal sense. But, yes, most professors I know tend to go by professor rather than doctor.
- ecopoesis 6y agoIf Dr. Biden wants to be called Professor then yes we should. But she’s made it clear she wants to be addressed as Doctor, a title she is entitled to, so what value is there in not respecting her wishes?
- tiahura 6y agohttps://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/lawyers-calling-themselves-doctor-is-still-stupid-trump-lawyer-edition/ https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/lawyers-calling-themselves-d... “We’ve long taken the stance that, despite the technicality that a “J.D.” has the word “doctor” in it, lawyers who adopt the honorific are, well, jackasses.”
- 6y ago
- masklinn 6y agoAccording to the wiki it's a combination of historical happenstance: > It has not been customary in the United States to address holders of the J.D. as "doctor". It was noted in the 1920s, when the title was widely used by people with doctorates (even those that, at the time, were undergraduate qualifications) and others, that the J.D. stood out from other doctorates in this respect. and a form of… I guess gatekeeping / elitism? > In the late 1960s, the rising number of American law schools awarding J.D.s led to debate over whether lawyers could ethically use the title "Doctor". Initial informal ethics opinions, based on the Canons of Professional Ethics then in force, came down against this. Apparently the 1969 Code of Professional Responsibility allows JD to call themselves Doctors but not all bars adopted it, and some adopted it without the clause. So: * it's customary in the US to not call JDs doctors * it may or may not be allowed by the state bar In 2011, Mother Jones had to amend an article where they stated that Michelle Bachmann "was misrepresenting her qualifications" by titling herself Dr. based on her JD.
- nickthemagicman 6y agoJD literally stands for Juris Doctor.
- Sharlin 6y agoAh, so it’s just a question of nomenclature. Was just curious because around here a juridical doctorate is a research degree just like a PhD, and most practicers of law are not doctors. Indeed most medical doctors are not doctors either but rather licentiates (an intermediate degree between a master and a doctor) :D
- rhino369 6y agoJD is considered to be the "terminal" degree for law. While its technically the "standard and lowest law degree" its also the highest. Professors at law schools mostly have JDs (some also have PhDs, but most don't). Some programs have a SJD that is a rough approximation for research doctorate for law. But they are mostly money-grab degrees aimed at foreigners. LLMs are basically the lawyer equivalent of a "graduate certificate." You take ~7-9 classes (the same electives JD candidates are taking). LLMs for people with foreign law degrees can be worth while, but the rest are money grab programs (with the exception of a Tax LLM since most law students don't take any tax classes). Professional "doctorates" aren't really the same as doctorate. But I'd lump MD and D.Ed in with JD too.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> JD is considered to be the "terminal" degree for law. No, that's the SJD. > While its technically the "standard and lowest law degree" No, that is the BSL, though most students pursuing law get a different baccalaureate degree and then enter a JD program. JD is a first-professional degree, not the lowest degree in the field. > LLMs for people with foreign law degrees can be worth while Also, IIRC, an LLM is a cheaper and quicker alternative to an ABA-accredited JD as a qualification to sit for the bar exam in certain jurisdictions, if you are already admitted to practice in a foreign jurisdiction.
- Schiendelman 6y agoThat's interesting, I never before this comment realized people were nitpicking an EdD vs PhD. Thanks.
- barry-cotter 6y agoThe difference between a real and substantial piece of original research and a double length Master’s thesis is not nitpicking.
- jonathanstrange 6y agoTo be fair, in many disciplines PhD theses are often not real and substantial pieces of research either. But they should be and it's only due to grade inflation that they aren't, so there is still a difference.
- Schiendelman 6y agoI don’t think that’s a given as a difference between the degrees.
- furyg3 6y ago> Dr. Biden does not have a PhD (or an MD), which led to the mentioned controversy Dr. Biden has an EdD, or Doctor of Education, which is a research doctorate. People with this title commonly use the title "Dr", as they do have a doctoral degree. AFAIK 'Dr.' is not a protected title in the US, so anyone can call themselves Dr. if they so choose. Where they get into trouble is if they are using the title fraudulently; for example to imply that they are a medical doctor, or claim to have a degree that they do not actually have.
- kube-system 6y ago> AFAIK 'Dr.' is not a protected title in the US, so anyone can call themselves Dr. if they so choose. Example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Dre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Dre
- MereInterest 6y agoNon-mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Dre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Dre
- lotsofpulp 6y agoYou can call yourself whatever you want in the US, unless you’re trying to sell medical advice and claiming to be a medical doctor and you’re not. Although a bunch of states are allowing people who have no expertise or study of evidence based medicine to sell their services as doctors, so even that standard is getting lowered. Edit: fixed can can typo
- D13Fd 6y agoThat’s true in that there is no law against it. You can give yourself whatever title you want. Other people are going to find it confusing and embarrassing though.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y agoI know someone who has done this supposedly because they were working in a facility around children where everyone needed a graduate level degree. They got a bogus PhD from a degree mill to use for a title.
- Schiendelman 6y agoGood metapoint - you don't even have to call yourself, you can can yourself! :D
- tiziniano 6y agoYeah, you hit a pretty deep cultural point about the US here. Everyone "can be anything" just by thinking it. And that's not even getting in to the pronoun people...
- barry-cotter 6y agoIt’s no more or less fraudulent than the holder of an Ed.D. using the title. Just because it’s a jumped up Bachelor’s, like an M.D. doesn’t mean you can’t choose to use the title.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- scythe 6y agoOn the other hand, if you have no such degree and write novels about tripping on ether in Las Vegas, you can get away with it.
- rhino369 6y agoMost state's attorney ethics boards to allow you to call yourself a Doctor. But in practice, you look like a fool doing so.