6 ms·

> I guess my question is: is it justified or is this just my lack of experience of living in the states running amok ? The most dangerous places are places whe

> I guess my question is: is it justified or is this just my lack of experience of living in the states running amok ? The most dangerous places are places where there's access to firearms for criminals, but they're illegal or prohibited for citizens. The most heavily armed states in the USA actually have lower gun crime and violent crime. Likewise, extremely heavily armed countries like Switzerland and Israel also have low violent crime rates. You've got to go to one side or the other to be safe. Near complete removal and prohibition of firearms (like Japan) works. Arming all legitimate citizens who want arms works. But having firearms available easily for purchase on the black market, but restricted/prohibited legally tends to promote the worst of both worlds.

SeoxyS 15y ago
Thread OP here. It's funny you'd bring up Switzerland as an example, because I'm actually originally from Switzerland, but have lived across the world including Switzerland, South Africa, Japan, Russia, Oakland & SF. I've had interesting experiences at some of these other places wrt. to safety etc., but that's a story for another day. In Switzerland, though, I think it's important to keep a few things in mind when you look at the statistics, before you judge it as a heavily armed country: - It's mandatory for every male to serve in the army, where we are all issued rifles. We get to keep the rifles at home when not on duty, and get to keep them after our duties are complete should we wish to. This makes up a huge part of the guns owned in CH. Military rifles are very hard to conceal and do not make for very good armed robbery weapons. - While guns are common, ammunition is hard to come by. Military ammunition is only given while on-duty, and must be returned to the arsenal when not on-duty. While many people have guns, few have ammunitions. - For almost everybody, guns remain locked in the attic / basement to be used only should the military call.
- rapind 15y ago
  This is a really good point, and it's statements like "Switzerland is heavily armed but relatively safe so..." that destroy credibility. Mind you there are plenty of misleading stats for the counter argument as well. Please let me know if you ever find a truly unbiased study on gun laws and their impact on crime. Seems like everyone's got an agenda, which is unfortunate because it's really a pretty interesting topic.
jellicle 15y ago
"The most heavily armed states in the USA actually have lower gun crime and violent crime." That's not true in the slightest. Prevalence of guns directly equates to a greater incidence of gun crime, on both an international (say, U.S. vs. other nations) and intranational basis.
patrickod 15y ago
I don't see how you can realistically have either of these extremes. In Ireland handguns, with the exception of a particular class of law enforcement and competition .22 calibre guns, are illegal - period. You can buy firearms but it's a very drawn out process and the ultimate decision lies at the discretion of your local police Superintendent. There are still murders committed in Ireland with handguns between rival city gangs but the common mugger will not have one. Do I feel safer? Yes It seems that Switzerland has a low gun-crime rate but I wouldn't be so quick to give credit to their gunlaws for this. Switzerland and the United States are very different places. Again this is just my $0.02
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- dkersten 15y ago
  If you live in the country, getting a rifle isn't thaaaat dificult. There are still a bunch of hoops to jump through, of course, but it doesn't take a lot either. And if the local Superintendent says no, then you're out of luck, of course. I do feel safer knowing there aren't a lot of guns around. I lived in Ballymun for a year and witnessed all sorts of craziness - arson, vandalism, stabbings - but not once a gun crime. I've never been attacked or robbed myself either, thankfully.
  - rubashov 15y ago
    Last place I lived the dude in my basement had three guns and the guys on either side of me each had shotguns and rifles. I felt very safe. I think the difference is that due to demographics the Irish don't face the constant threat of the urban zombie hordes attacking.
    - Anti-Ratfish 15y ago
      Interesting medical perspective. http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;105/4/888 http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediat...
_delirium 15y ago
> The most heavily armed states in the USA actually have lower gun crime and violent crime. Is that true when you compare cities of similar size / population density? Sure, Montana has a ton of guns and little crime, but it's also rural and has no people. Looking at cities >250k, the high-crime cities (let's say, those over 10 violent crimes per 1,000 inhabitants) don't seem to skip states with loose gun laws: St. Louis, MO; Memphis, TN; Indianapolis, IN; Kansas City, MO; Atlanta, GA; Houston, TX; and Tulsa, OK; are all high on the list. (Data from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...)
- lionhearted 15y ago
  I just did a quick google and I'm not finding stats, but I've seen in a couple places features on the percent of population that legally owns firearms and on violent crime - if I remember correctly, they're reverse-correlated. The last time I saw it was in a feature by Al Jeezera which was linked to from a HN comment, I think. The population point is interesting and I'm not sure about that. Maybe something to do some looking into at some point, I'd be curious to know more. Edit: This seems almost comically biased and appeals to emotion a lot, but does cite some stats - http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html
  - dreyfiz 15y ago
    John Lott is kind of a flake with several credibility problems: allegations of academic fraud in his studies and of not actually conducting a survey he claimed to have done, proven allegations of sockpuppeting ("Mary Rosh"), lack of corroboration of his claims by any other academics... More Guns Less Crime is a snappy title, but mostly seems like a work of ideological pro-firearm propaganda in light of its author's many documented ethical issues.
    - vacri 15y ago
      Lott is also the guy who predicted that Australia would become a lawless wild west with stricter gun laws in place after the Port Arthur massacre. He overlooked the point that we never really had guns anyway, and the laws were only restricting automatic rifles and requiring guns safes at home, and that after a one year slight rise in crime (crime is cyclic), crime has dropped markedly since that point (for reasons entirely unrelated to guns, because guns don't really factor into our society). This wouldn't be so much of a big point, except that he did spend a lot of time trumpeting about this single year of slight rise in crime. If you read his studies at the time, he also grossly misrepresents things like doing that trick where you report going from 4 to 5 incidents a year as "OMG! 25% increase!" (can't remember the exact number) Kleck is another guy with crazy stats. In one report he mentioned that concealed handguns saved 230k lives per year in the US. I crunched the numbers to see how that would translate to our 'lawless', 'gunless' country, where criminals 'have free reign', and it would mean we would have 15k deaths because we don't do concealed gun laws. Turned out that our annual murder rate from all sources combined is about 300. Part of the pro-gun propaganda is the implicit assumption that every crime involves death or rape. I've spent a lot of time looking at gun issues over the years and started out from a total anti-gun perspective, with the exception of farmers and security. As I've examined it, the problem really seems to be handguns. Rifles don't seem to be so much of an issue - anecdotally at least, it's hard to conceal a rifle. The armed Swiss that's so often reported are armed with rifles, too (interestingly the 'armed society is a polite society' people always seem to leave out west Africa...). When you start looking at the statistics in the US, it really jumps out at you how bad handguns are there. I've also never, ever, seen any pro-gun argument make note of the role of the startling increase in US incarceration have an affect on crime rates. It's an interesting topic and blinkered passion rise on all sides, that's for sure.

SeoxyS 15y ago

Thread OP here. It's funny you'd bring up Switzerland as an example, because I'm actually originally from Switzerland, but have lived across the world including Switzerland, South Africa, Japan, Russia, Oakland & SF. I've had interesting experiences at some of these other places wrt. to safety etc., but that's a story for another day. In Switzerland, though, I think it's important to keep a few things in mind when you look at the statistics, before you judge it as a heavily armed country: - It's mandatory for every male to serve in the army, where we are all issued rifles. We get to keep the rifles at home when not on duty, and get to keep them after our duties are complete should we wish to. This makes up a huge part of the guns owned in CH. Military rifles are very hard to conceal and do not make for very good armed robbery weapons. - While guns are common, ammunition is hard to come by. Military ammunition is only given while on-duty, and must be returned to the arsenal when not on-duty. While many people have guns, few have ammunitions. - For almost everybody, guns remain locked in the attic / basement to be used only should the military call.

rapind 15y ago
This is a really good point, and it's statements like "Switzerland is heavily armed but relatively safe so..." that destroy credibility. Mind you there are plenty of misleading stats for the counter argument as well. Please let me know if you ever find a truly unbiased study on gun laws and their impact on crime. Seems like everyone's got an agenda, which is unfortunate because it's really a pretty interesting topic.

jellicle 15y ago

"The most heavily armed states in the USA actually have lower gun crime and violent crime." That's not true in the slightest. Prevalence of guns directly equates to a greater incidence of gun crime, on both an international (say, U.S. vs. other nations) and intranational basis.

patrickod 15y ago

I don't see how you can realistically have either of these extremes. In Ireland handguns, with the exception of a particular class of law enforcement and competition .22 calibre guns, are illegal - period. You can buy firearms but it's a very drawn out process and the ultimate decision lies at the discretion of your local police Superintendent. There are still murders committed in Ireland with handguns between rival city gangs but the common mugger will not have one. Do I feel safer? Yes It seems that Switzerland has a low gun-crime rate but I wouldn't be so quick to give credit to their gunlaws for this. Switzerland and the United States are very different places. Again this is just my $0.02

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
dkersten 15y ago
If you live in the country, getting a rifle isn't thaaaat dificult. There are still a bunch of hoops to jump through, of course, but it doesn't take a lot either. And if the local Superintendent says no, then you're out of luck, of course. I do feel safer knowing there aren't a lot of guns around. I lived in Ballymun for a year and witnessed all sorts of craziness - arson, vandalism, stabbings - but not once a gun crime. I've never been attacked or robbed myself either, thankfully.
- rubashov 15y ago
  Last place I lived the dude in my basement had three guns and the guys on either side of me each had shotguns and rifles. I felt very safe. I think the difference is that due to demographics the Irish don't face the constant threat of the urban zombie hordes attacking.
  - Anti-Ratfish 15y ago
    Interesting medical perspective. http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;105/4/888 http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediat...

_delirium 15y ago

> The most heavily armed states in the USA actually have lower gun crime and violent crime. Is that true when you compare cities of similar size / population density? Sure, Montana has a ton of guns and little crime, but it's also rural and has no people. Looking at cities >250k, the high-crime cities (let's say, those over 10 violent crimes per 1,000 inhabitants) don't seem to skip states with loose gun laws: St. Louis, MO; Memphis, TN; Indianapolis, IN; Kansas City, MO; Atlanta, GA; Houston, TX; and Tulsa, OK; are all high on the list. (Data from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...)

lionhearted 15y ago
I just did a quick google and I'm not finding stats, but I've seen in a couple places features on the percent of population that legally owns firearms and on violent crime - if I remember correctly, they're reverse-correlated. The last time I saw it was in a feature by Al Jeezera which was linked to from a HN comment, I think. The population point is interesting and I'm not sure about that. Maybe something to do some looking into at some point, I'd be curious to know more. Edit: This seems almost comically biased and appeals to emotion a lot, but does cite some stats - http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html
- dreyfiz 15y ago
  John Lott is kind of a flake with several credibility problems: allegations of academic fraud in his studies and of not actually conducting a survey he claimed to have done, proven allegations of sockpuppeting ("Mary Rosh"), lack of corroboration of his claims by any other academics... More Guns Less Crime is a snappy title, but mostly seems like a work of ideological pro-firearm propaganda in light of its author's many documented ethical issues.
  - vacri 15y ago
    Lott is also the guy who predicted that Australia would become a lawless wild west with stricter gun laws in place after the Port Arthur massacre. He overlooked the point that we never really had guns anyway, and the laws were only restricting automatic rifles and requiring guns safes at home, and that after a one year slight rise in crime (crime is cyclic), crime has dropped markedly since that point (for reasons entirely unrelated to guns, because guns don't really factor into our society). This wouldn't be so much of a big point, except that he did spend a lot of time trumpeting about this single year of slight rise in crime. If you read his studies at the time, he also grossly misrepresents things like doing that trick where you report going from 4 to 5 incidents a year as "OMG! 25% increase!" (can't remember the exact number) Kleck is another guy with crazy stats. In one report he mentioned that concealed handguns saved 230k lives per year in the US. I crunched the numbers to see how that would translate to our 'lawless', 'gunless' country, where criminals 'have free reign', and it would mean we would have 15k deaths because we don't do concealed gun laws. Turned out that our annual murder rate from all sources combined is about 300. Part of the pro-gun propaganda is the implicit assumption that every crime involves death or rape. I've spent a lot of time looking at gun issues over the years and started out from a total anti-gun perspective, with the exception of farmers and security. As I've examined it, the problem really seems to be handguns. Rifles don't seem to be so much of an issue - anecdotally at least, it's hard to conceal a rifle. The armed Swiss that's so often reported are armed with rifles, too (interestingly the 'armed society is a polite society' people always seem to leave out west Africa...). When you start looking at the statistics in the US, it really jumps out at you how bad handguns are there. I've also never, ever, seen any pro-gun argument make note of the role of the startling increase in US incarceration have an affect on crime rates. It's an interesting topic and blinkered passion rise on all sides, that's for sure.