7 ms·

As someone who's been mugged before the proliferation of firearms in the states really unnerves me. I got jumped in a shady area of Dublin one dark winters nigh

As someone who's been mugged before the proliferation of firearms in the states really unnerves me. I got jumped in a shady area of Dublin one dark winters night, was punched repeatedly in the face, and had my bike stolen. The Gardai (Irish name for the police force) handled it very well and recovered the bike that very night. The individual was known to them and it went on the long list of offenses that this person was generating for one hell of a court date. Gun crime doesn't exist in Ireland like it seems to in the US. The idea that someone out to mug me and take my wallet would have a firearm pointed at me and not just their fists is, to me, quite scary. I don't know what the statistics are like for such crimes at gunpoint and while I write this I realise that this fear might well be the result of my limited exposure to American news outlets. I guess my question is: is it justified or is this just my lack of experience of living in the states running amok ?

anonymoushn 15y ago
This is mostly a problem of the areas in the U.S. that attempt to ban firearms. In Texas, for instance, gun crime is much less prevalent because many more people have guns. In California, you can legally carry an unloaded weapon, but you'll get harassed by police officers who like to joke about executing civilians who choose to carry guns openly. An unloaded weapon will also help you surprisingly little if the stranger who is mugging you is pointing a loaded weapon at you. You can apply for a concealed carry permit, but you will be denied, even if you live in Oakland.
- vacri 15y ago
  A friend in LA told me that apparently tinted side car windows are illegal there, supposedly so an approaching cop isn't blindsided by a firearm. It just seems innately odd that firearms are legal, but tinted windows aren't in case you have one...
tzs 15y ago
I wonder if the mugger's lack of a gun is WHY you got repeatedly punched in the face? I've never mugged anyone, but I would guess that the first step is to establish control over the victim. With a gun against an unarmed victim, the mugger gets control easily. With neither armed, the mugger might need to actually attack and force submission before the victim decides if he should fight back or not.
- savramescu 15y ago
  You assume that everyone follows a sound method of thinking, but if he just wants cash for a fix and he hasn't had one in a while he won't be rational.
- zbyszek 15y ago
  My experience of being mugged leads me to believe that the degree of violence meted out is not necessarily the amount strictly needed to gain control.
pavel_lishin 15y ago
Why are guns so terrifying, but not a knife, or a hammer, or a steel bar, or a broken bottle?
- jrockway 15y ago
  Because guns fire projectiles over the speed of sound, whereas people with hammers run at about the same speed I do.
- joshes 15y ago
  Could have something to do with the fact that you can be shot from quite a bit greater distance than you can be stabbed with a knife, hit with a hammer, struck with a steel bar or cut with a broken bottle.
- sorbus 15y ago
  It takes far less effort to kill someone with a gun than with many other weapons. They also don't need to be close to the victim: being shot from 10 feet away is just as bad as being shot from 2 feet away, while being 10 feet away makes all of the alternatives you mentioned pretty ineffective.
  - georgieporgie 15y ago
    It's amazing how much harder it is to shoot something with a pistol from ten feet than it is from two. Unless the person practices regularly (which I suspect most street thugs do not), your chance of unharmed escape increases pretty much exponentially with distance. That's not to say that I hope to ever have one pointed at me.
    - roc 15y ago
      > "It's amazing how much harder it is to shoot something with a pistol from ten feet than it is from two." Not to mention how much harder it is to shoot something moving, compared to something that isn't.
    - sorbus 15y ago
jhamburger 15y ago
Wait, so being threatened and robbed is more scary to you than being savagely beaten and robbed?
- patrickod 15y ago
  An itchy trigger finger could mean a life threatening injury. I'd rather take the hit and have a bruise that would heal and not end up with a bullet in me.
  - andrewpi 15y ago
    Actually, a single punch can kill you. (see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392113/Aspiring-rapper-John-Powell-killed-Tiffany-Startzs-single-punch-5-party-bet.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392113/Aspiring-rap...)
    - gamache 15y ago
      A single punch killing you is so unusual, you had to back it up with a link. Gunshots do not share this condition.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  You can fight back if they punch you. If they have a gun, and you do too, then one of you will likely wind up dead. That said, there are worse ways to be mugged. I had a friend develop a pretty bad smelling problem, and his sponsor in NA used to mug people by sticking a dirty needle into their neck and threatening to inject them with whatever was in it. Pretty savage.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
mhd 15y ago
On the other hand, isn't Limerick still known as Stab City?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
lionhearted 15y ago
> I guess my question is: is it justified or is this just my lack of experience of living in the states running amok ? The most dangerous places are places where there's access to firearms for criminals, but they're illegal or prohibited for citizens. The most heavily armed states in the USA actually have lower gun crime and violent crime. Likewise, extremely heavily armed countries like Switzerland and Israel also have low violent crime rates. You've got to go to one side or the other to be safe. Near complete removal and prohibition of firearms (like Japan) works. Arming all legitimate citizens who want arms works. But having firearms available easily for purchase on the black market, but restricted/prohibited legally tends to promote the worst of both worlds.
- SeoxyS 15y ago
  Thread OP here. It's funny you'd bring up Switzerland as an example, because I'm actually originally from Switzerland, but have lived across the world including Switzerland, South Africa, Japan, Russia, Oakland & SF. I've had interesting experiences at some of these other places wrt. to safety etc., but that's a story for another day. In Switzerland, though, I think it's important to keep a few things in mind when you look at the statistics, before you judge it as a heavily armed country: - It's mandatory for every male to serve in the army, where we are all issued rifles. We get to keep the rifles at home when not on duty, and get to keep them after our duties are complete should we wish to. This makes up a huge part of the guns owned in CH. Military rifles are very hard to conceal and do not make for very good armed robbery weapons. - While guns are common, ammunition is hard to come by. Military ammunition is only given while on-duty, and must be returned to the arsenal when not on-duty. While many people have guns, few have ammunitions. - For almost everybody, guns remain locked in the attic / basement to be used only should the military call.
  - rapind 15y ago
    This is a really good point, and it's statements like "Switzerland is heavily armed but relatively safe so..." that destroy credibility. Mind you there are plenty of misleading stats for the counter argument as well. Please let me know if you ever find a truly unbiased study on gun laws and their impact on crime. Seems like everyone's got an agenda, which is unfortunate because it's really a pretty interesting topic.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
yelsgib 15y ago
Is sulfuric acid illegal in Ireland? I would rather have a gun pointed at me than a large man threaten to burn my face off.
tptacek 15y ago
Please, not this argument, not on HN.
- JonnieCache 15y ago
  Worse than that, there's two of them going on on the frontpage right now, one in here, one in the thread about glasgow carpark gangstas. I'll just report a comment I made 5 months ago when this happened: "THIS debate definitely does not belong here. Seriously, even if humankind ever does sort out the essentially intractable problem of governmental control over the carrying of lethal weapons by the citizenry, I am willing to bet everything I own that we won't be sorting it out here on Hacker News. I reckon we could have a fucking boring argument about it though. I've seen it done, it looks easy." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2028182 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2028182
philwelch 15y ago
From the HN guidelines: "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." I really doubt there's anything new or interesting to be had from rehashing the gun politics argument over again.
bdunbar 15y ago
is it justified or is this just my lack of experience of living in the states running amok ? The latter. Most of us live in places where crime is not a problem. We're not all in mortal fear for our lives, having property stolen left and right at gun point. And .. the modest amount of actual crime I've seen, no guns were brandished. I'd rather be threatened with a gun than by a big palooka with his fists. * Fists or a gun, you're going to do what he says. He's got the drop on you, we can assume he's picked a place where help is unlikely to come, you can't get away quickly. * A guy like that is big, likes to fight. He's going to do some damage. If he gets into it, he can cripple you for life, rack up some serious hospital bills. * Criminals with guns don't seem to have much of a chance to learn to use them well. Contrary to TV, while shooting a gun is easy, actually hitting something is difficult. It takes practice.
- gburt 15y ago
  "Most of us" live in places where crime is not a problem. Does anyone live in a place where crime is a problem as you describe it? It seems that the Westerner attitude is that "somewhere else" things are really bad. New Orleans has close to the highest murder rate in the world.
  - bdunbar 15y ago
    Does anyone live in a place where crime is a problem as you describe it? I have. It seems that the Westerner attitude is that "somewhere else" things are really bad. If I lived in a place where crime was a problem, I'd say so. New Orleans has close to the highest murder rate in the world. Cape Town was higher, last year. And? I don't especially care about New Orleans: don't live there, wouldn't want to live there. It's a problem, but there isn't anything I can _do_ about it, so why worry?
    - gburt 15y ago
      Thanks for the data point re: Cape Town. That's interesting. I suppose my only point was that we like to think that things are way worse somewhere else (or perhaps someone likes us thinking that?), the State Department likes to issue warnings about how dangerous Country XYZ is, but you'll never see a travel warning w.r.t. visiting New Orleans.

anonymoushn 15y ago

This is mostly a problem of the areas in the U.S. that attempt to ban firearms. In Texas, for instance, gun crime is much less prevalent because many more people have guns. In California, you can legally carry an unloaded weapon, but you'll get harassed by police officers who like to joke about executing civilians who choose to carry guns openly. An unloaded weapon will also help you surprisingly little if the stranger who is mugging you is pointing a loaded weapon at you. You can apply for a concealed carry permit, but you will be denied, even if you live in Oakland.

vacri 15y ago
A friend in LA told me that apparently tinted side car windows are illegal there, supposedly so an approaching cop isn't blindsided by a firearm. It just seems innately odd that firearms are legal, but tinted windows aren't in case you have one...

tzs 15y ago

I wonder if the mugger's lack of a gun is WHY you got repeatedly punched in the face? I've never mugged anyone, but I would guess that the first step is to establish control over the victim. With a gun against an unarmed victim, the mugger gets control easily. With neither armed, the mugger might need to actually attack and force submission before the victim decides if he should fight back or not.

savramescu 15y ago
You assume that everyone follows a sound method of thinking, but if he just wants cash for a fix and he hasn't had one in a while he won't be rational.
zbyszek 15y ago
My experience of being mugged leads me to believe that the degree of violence meted out is not necessarily the amount strictly needed to gain control.

pavel_lishin 15y ago

Why are guns so terrifying, but not a knife, or a hammer, or a steel bar, or a broken bottle?

jrockway 15y ago
Because guns fire projectiles over the speed of sound, whereas people with hammers run at about the same speed I do.
joshes 15y ago
Could have something to do with the fact that you can be shot from quite a bit greater distance than you can be stabbed with a knife, hit with a hammer, struck with a steel bar or cut with a broken bottle.
sorbus 15y ago
It takes far less effort to kill someone with a gun than with many other weapons. They also don't need to be close to the victim: being shot from 10 feet away is just as bad as being shot from 2 feet away, while being 10 feet away makes all of the alternatives you mentioned pretty ineffective.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  It's amazing how much harder it is to shoot something with a pistol from ten feet than it is from two. Unless the person practices regularly (which I suspect most street thugs do not), your chance of unharmed escape increases pretty much exponentially with distance. That's not to say that I hope to ever have one pointed at me.
  - roc 15y ago
    > "It's amazing how much harder it is to shoot something with a pistol from ten feet than it is from two." Not to mention how much harder it is to shoot something moving, compared to something that isn't.
  - sorbus 15y ago

jhamburger 15y ago

Wait, so being threatened and robbed is more scary to you than being savagely beaten and robbed?

patrickod 15y ago
An itchy trigger finger could mean a life threatening injury. I'd rather take the hit and have a bruise that would heal and not end up with a bullet in me.
- andrewpi 15y ago
  Actually, a single punch can kill you. (see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392113/Aspiring-rapper-John-Powell-killed-Tiffany-Startzs-single-punch-5-party-bet.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392113/Aspiring-rap...)
  - gamache 15y ago
    A single punch killing you is so unusual, you had to back it up with a link. Gunshots do not share this condition.
redthrowaway 15y ago
You can fight back if they punch you. If they have a gun, and you do too, then one of you will likely wind up dead. That said, there are worse ways to be mugged. I had a friend develop a pretty bad smelling problem, and his sponsor in NA used to mug people by sticking a dirty needle into their neck and threatening to inject them with whatever was in it. Pretty savage.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

mhd 15y ago

On the other hand, isn't Limerick still known as Stab City?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

lionhearted 15y ago

> I guess my question is: is it justified or is this just my lack of experience of living in the states running amok ? The most dangerous places are places where there's access to firearms for criminals, but they're illegal or prohibited for citizens. The most heavily armed states in the USA actually have lower gun crime and violent crime. Likewise, extremely heavily armed countries like Switzerland and Israel also have low violent crime rates. You've got to go to one side or the other to be safe. Near complete removal and prohibition of firearms (like Japan) works. Arming all legitimate citizens who want arms works. But having firearms available easily for purchase on the black market, but restricted/prohibited legally tends to promote the worst of both worlds.

SeoxyS 15y ago
Thread OP here. It's funny you'd bring up Switzerland as an example, because I'm actually originally from Switzerland, but have lived across the world including Switzerland, South Africa, Japan, Russia, Oakland & SF. I've had interesting experiences at some of these other places wrt. to safety etc., but that's a story for another day. In Switzerland, though, I think it's important to keep a few things in mind when you look at the statistics, before you judge it as a heavily armed country: - It's mandatory for every male to serve in the army, where we are all issued rifles. We get to keep the rifles at home when not on duty, and get to keep them after our duties are complete should we wish to. This makes up a huge part of the guns owned in CH. Military rifles are very hard to conceal and do not make for very good armed robbery weapons. - While guns are common, ammunition is hard to come by. Military ammunition is only given while on-duty, and must be returned to the arsenal when not on-duty. While many people have guns, few have ammunitions. - For almost everybody, guns remain locked in the attic / basement to be used only should the military call.
- rapind 15y ago
  This is a really good point, and it's statements like "Switzerland is heavily armed but relatively safe so..." that destroy credibility. Mind you there are plenty of misleading stats for the counter argument as well. Please let me know if you ever find a truly unbiased study on gun laws and their impact on crime. Seems like everyone's got an agenda, which is unfortunate because it's really a pretty interesting topic.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

yelsgib 15y ago

Is sulfuric acid illegal in Ireland? I would rather have a gun pointed at me than a large man threaten to burn my face off.

tptacek 15y ago

Please, not this argument, not on HN.

JonnieCache 15y ago
Worse than that, there's two of them going on on the frontpage right now, one in here, one in the thread about glasgow carpark gangstas. I'll just report a comment I made 5 months ago when this happened: "THIS debate definitely does not belong here. Seriously, even if humankind ever does sort out the essentially intractable problem of governmental control over the carrying of lethal weapons by the citizenry, I am willing to bet everything I own that we won't be sorting it out here on Hacker News. I reckon we could have a fucking boring argument about it though. I've seen it done, it looks easy." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2028182 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2028182

philwelch 15y ago

From the HN guidelines: "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." I really doubt there's anything new or interesting to be had from rehashing the gun politics argument over again.

bdunbar 15y ago

is it justified or is this just my lack of experience of living in the states running amok ? The latter. Most of us live in places where crime is not a problem. We're not all in mortal fear for our lives, having property stolen left and right at gun point. And .. the modest amount of actual crime I've seen, no guns were brandished. I'd rather be threatened with a gun than by a big palooka with his fists. * Fists or a gun, you're going to do what he says. He's got the drop on you, we can assume he's picked a place where help is unlikely to come, you can't get away quickly. * A guy like that is big, likes to fight. He's going to do some damage. If he gets into it, he can cripple you for life, rack up some serious hospital bills. * Criminals with guns don't seem to have much of a chance to learn to use them well. Contrary to TV, while shooting a gun is easy, actually hitting something is difficult. It takes practice.

gburt 15y ago
"Most of us" live in places where crime is not a problem. Does anyone live in a place where crime is a problem as you describe it? It seems that the Westerner attitude is that "somewhere else" things are really bad. New Orleans has close to the highest murder rate in the world.
- bdunbar 15y ago
  Does anyone live in a place where crime is a problem as you describe it? I have. It seems that the Westerner attitude is that "somewhere else" things are really bad. If I lived in a place where crime was a problem, I'd say so. New Orleans has close to the highest murder rate in the world. Cape Town was higher, last year. And? I don't especially care about New Orleans: don't live there, wouldn't want to live there. It's a problem, but there isn't anything I can _do_ about it, so why worry?
  - gburt 15y ago
    Thanks for the data point re: Cape Town. That's interesting. I suppose my only point was that we like to think that things are way worse somewhere else (or perhaps someone likes us thinking that?), the State Department likes to issue warnings about how dangerous Country XYZ is, but you'll never see a travel warning w.r.t. visiting New Orleans.