16 ms·

Q: What if you find yourself in a truly toxic work environment? A: My advice is to get out if you can. Toxic situations make you emotionally and physically s

• psyc 6y ago
  Most important lesson I ever learned and I share it freely, because I could have saved 2 years of misery had I really understood. People be like “well you say that but some of us have mortgages, families, kids, cats to feed”. Well guess what. If you burn out, not only will you lose that income, but you won’t be able to look for a job at best, or wind up with hospital bills at worst. In other words, you risk a far worse situation than if you had quit with no notice and nothing lined up. There is no possible excuse for risking catastrophic illness, especially when you have more job mobility and are in greater demand than most professions. There is no “if you can” as hard as that may be to accept, or as irresponsible as it may sound to you or look to others. It’s not good but it’s the least worst option. If the job is harming you badly enough then sorry but if you cannot negotiate a better situation where you are, you must leave for yourself and anyone who cares about you.
  • marcod 6y ago
    So true! I also lost about 2 years and my physical and mental health really deteriorated and 5 years later I'm still dealing with fallout. I was a manager under a toxic director, so I had the added pressure of making sure my team was all right. After most of them had found positions elsewhere, I finally left.
    • lazide 6y ago
      For future reference, having done it both ways - finding a good out for yourself(and putting your oxygen mask on first) is usually better for the people under you too, as it shows them what they should be doing AND gives them (often) a place they can reach out to and land.
      • anaerobicover 6y ago
        It might also help push them off the fence, as they see their cover from the sewage storm disappear.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • silicon2401 6y ago
    Absolutely agree. I can't recommend enough that people look for new jobs as soon as they have major issues with their current one. Worst case, things improve and you just stop looking for a new one. Best case, you get a new job and things are way better. Even if the new job isn't amazing, at least the novelty and change of pace, plus the pride of having accomplished a new job, can recharge you enough to keep going. At my first job, I was incredibly unhappy due to various reasons. I started looking for a job, and because I was already under so much strain from the current job, it took almost a year to find a new job. If I had waited until the breaking point, it would've been even more difficult to find a job due to having to recover from the first job, and then slog through almost a year of applying. This isn't to scare people about the job market. But it's called a market for a reason. It's okay to have something today and look around for something better, even if what you have now isn't the worst thing ever.
    • steveBK123 6y ago
      Yes I have this discussion with other people. You can interview and just.. not take the offers. The last couple places I left, I had offers up to a year or two before leaving but weighing cost-benefit, stayed at that time. It's better to have the option than not. And interviewing is truly not that much work. You don't have to be perfect. The less you need the job, the less the interview process should stress you. We call this "opportunistic interviewing". You can emphasize to the recruiter/HR/interviewer when pressed that - actually I'm happy where I am at the moment, but I am always up for a conversation and this sounded like it could be an interesting opportunity. You may find companies even respond more favorably in the interview process to you when you are somewhat aloof in this manner. You will also make connections with companies who may touch base from time to time to see if now is a better time to make the jump. This is infinitely better than having zero leads and feel like your life is going to hell before you even start looking.
      • anaerobicover 6y ago
        > You can emphasize to the recruiter/HR/interviewer when pressed that - actually I'm happy where I am at the moment, but I am always up for a conversation and this sounded like it could be an interesting opportunity. I agree with what you've said, but word of caution, this has to be handled with a bit of finesse, I think. I almost got passed over for a job because I said this and gave the recruiter the impression I wasn't that interested. I had a acquaintance on another team who mentioned it to me, and I did a little "damage control" with the hiring manager. I got a great offer in the end -- and it was a great job -- but without that contact I would probably have whiffed it.
  • system16 6y ago
    Very true. I wasted nearly two years of my life at a toxic agency that prided itself on its culture and how the company was a family. I'd dread Sunday evening. The morning drive to the office was always filled with a sense of impending doom. The finger pointing during "stand up". The end of the world when a TPS report didn't have a cover sheet, and mandatory meeting to come up with yet another new process to prevent future disasters. Eventually I just said fuck this and gave my two weeks notice. I had a mortgage, was the sole earner in my family, and had nothing else lined up. I was scared, but so relieved to never have to go back there. One week later I was offered a job with a much better company and environment, for significantly higher salary. My only regret is not leaving sooner.
    • vmception 6y ago
      For anyone else whose life is similar, I just want to say that I have had jobs where I truly enjoyed going to work. I only had the “sunday scaries” just to participate in the meme of hating work. But I was really anticipating picking up where I left off at work. So although you might find comraderie in other wage workers hating their life, still recognize that it is toxic and there are other realities that you are entitled to be in
      • efwfwef 6y ago
        This is really resonating with me, after two years in a job that had me think "I want to quit" by the weekly, it becomes the new normal and I can't imagine that a job can be stress-free, enjoyable, and provide good work-life balance. I just can't imagine that this exist. I just quit my current job, and I told myself that I will quit in less than 6 months if I don't like the new gig. Never again.
        • marcod 6y ago
          At one point I stopped being able to sleep on Sunday nights, dreading the work on Monday so much. Still took me way too long to put 2 and 2 together and leave...
  • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    I think what's missing from these discussions is that some people burn out really easy and some people aren't phased by the toxicity at all. Depending on the level of toxicity not everybody needs to cut and run. I know of a workplace where the boss is "verbally abusive" by white collar coastal standards (a real peace of work by blue collar middle America standards and a teddy bear by drill sergeant standards) and over the years people have cycled in and out and the people who've stayed are the ones who just let it roll right off and they're a really effective team.
  • IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    There is also unemployment, which for a married/partnered dev should be sufficent to cover most rent and essentials in the interim. You may need to pare down your expenses a lot prior to quitting but that's why you quit. You trade your toys in exchange for your well being
• nharada 6y ago
  > Yes, this sounds obvious Agreed, I think a hallmark of toxic situations is that from the outside it's obvious how bad they are and from the inside it's hard to see.
  • adamredwoods 6y ago
    I have had two severely toxic bosses in my lifetime, and it is difficult to do anything because I kept second-guessing myself that it was my fault. It took away my self-confidence for years, and led to unsuccessful interviews, which compounds into more self-doubt.
    • shortandsweet 6y ago
      Curious, what were the behaviors?
      • adamredwoods 6y ago
        Extreme control, including weekend work. Verbal insults, derogatory, lots of profanity. Verbal reminders of power: one would hover over me saying "Why are you even here?" while watching me work, then tell me to leave. I would then get called back the next day to work on something else. It was erratic. Classic case of power and control: you leave when I tell you, you come back when I tell you.
  • quercusa 6y ago
    The latter is mostly true. I can look back at events that revealed just how toxic things were, but there always seemed to be something (maybe the interesting part of the job, maybe somebody in worse shape) that kept me from processing them. But once away... As one former colleague said, "Nobody who left X ever wanted to go back."
• harlanji 6y ago
  My friend, one of the few people who gives me any advice at all seemed baffled that I would “make things harder for myself” by quitting jobs that make me feel like I’m becoming mentally ill. I can adopt that suvival mindset for a period, but when I am thinking about work problems while I’m away then it’s time to get out—context is entry level retail jobs. It would be better to have something new lined up, but unemployment also granted my claim so there’s that. Check out the term “constructive dismissal”... it’s not understood by most people, but unemployment insurance knows what it is. I didn’t use the term in my summary, just gave a brief description of the problems.
  • trulyme 6y ago
    For curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal
• qwantim1 6y ago
  I made the mistake of continually thinking my problem was those who led, then realizing it was me, then losing most of my self-confidence. I recommend not doing what I did. If it’s a bad fit, get out. It’s damaging.
  • ianai 6y ago
    And I recommend self-forgiveness and humility. I gave one of my former, extremely highly toxic bosses the DSM test for psychopathy and he scored like 26 or something. He was very open and upfront about it and how he saw the world. Frankly, the average person is not mentally capable of dealing with that level of ‘personality’ without some serious side study, knowledge, and support. He wasn’t that smart of a guy either. His neuro makeup just made him a natural at manipulating everyone. But management doesn’t have to be a five star psychopath to be incapable of correction from below. This is one of those times where simply desiring to act in bad faith and the societal backing of management makes a direct report or worker unable to counter the bad faith actions in any meaningful way on average. I’ve done it, I know how to do it, and it takes an incredible amount of wisdom and luck to pull off.
• dougmwne 6y ago
  If somone is a physical or emotional abuser you must get away from them as quickly as possible. Many abusers set themselves up in positions of power.
  • uncledave 6y ago
    I worked for one of them. Completely agree. One day I decided I’d had enough though and just went home, changed my phone SIM for a PAYG one and immediately moved half way down the country. I was his last remaining employee.
    • yholio 6y ago
      Sounds like you were escaping an abusive spouse. How about the traditional "fuck you, I quit", and not changing your sim or turning your life on its head for some jerk?
      • hntrader 6y ago
        I think the jerk might get more satisfaction being able to spam the victim's phone and torture them from beyond the grave, compared to being ghosted completely (which is a tactic that should be reserved for only the truly heinous).
        • mnw21cam 6y ago
          Restraining order exist for a reason. In most countries they are relatively easy to obtain.
      • uncledave 6y ago
        It felt like it. It took me two weeks to formulate a decent “fuck you” but I came to the conclusion that what remains unsaid is sometimes more effective than what is said.
  • nednar 6y ago
    What about the other people around you?
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• watwut 6y ago
  You cant change narcissist full stop. And you cant change toxic boss from below. I agree with these. But, I also dislike that a majority of advice on workplace and toxic people is basically "run away or enable it". Sometimes people can actually influence how much damage narcissist do and how far narcissist will grow in company. There is little advice on how to communicate and protect yourself when toxic person is peer and you have some power over situation. Or how to report the situation in a way that will make impact, how to recognize who to report to, how to communicate in a way that will make situation transparent for third parties.
  • steveBK123 6y ago
    Unless you really love the job/company and/or are really getting paid, the cost-benefit of "fighting the fight" is not favorable. Even getting a peer level narcissist neutralized or managed out can easily take 1-2 years of consistent, coordinated daily effort. What else can you do with your career or personal life with that type of effort?
    • watwut 6y ago
      My issue is systemic - if this is prevalent ideology, then abusers are bound to be the ones in power. Because everybody else is just running away. And they run away only toward other abusers in other companies - maybe somewhat milder but that is all. And I think that it is not just about "fight". It is also about things like verifying information, not covering up for them unnecesary, not lie for them out of politeness, keeping written record, talking about problems etc.
      • steveBK123 6y ago
        It strikes me as an employers problem to fix their toxic workplace, not lower level employees. You never know exactly who the abuser has in their corner within management. You never know the professional networks that exist if you work in a smaller niche. Once you've decided to go after someone toxic in management, you better not miss... and even if you don't, you may not want to make a habit of it.
• m463 6y ago
  > but at my last job I could have really used somebody telling me as much. Yeah, there's a subtle problem here: - coworkers are a self-selecting population, that are likely OK working there. - coworkers are probably over-represented in the people you talk to... and LISTEN to. - people you do not work with "don't understand" (in theory) I will say one thing: Every time I've left a job... Every. Time. ... I was really conflicted about leaving. Then, a week or two into the new job... Every. Time. ...I thought, "Wow! I should have done this sooner!"
• hntrader 6y ago
  Being biased towards quitting your job is a great heuristic. Even if the boss is o.k., if you have any non-trivial reservations at all it's generally best to quit as quickly as possible. Probably the same for breakups. Very few people regret doing that, the most common regret is staying too long due to inertia, loyalty or whatever. I've quit 3 jobs and each time I wished that I had quit earlier, and all 3 times have been great for my career in the long-run. If you were a good performer, you can probably just go back to same the job later if you change your mind as well, and if they don't want you back because they're being immature, then it's probably to your benefit not to return.
  • marcod 6y ago
    http://www.redstrategygroup.com/insights/2016/2/26/why-zappos-offers-new-hires-2000-to-quit http://www.redstrategygroup.com/insights/2016/2/26/why-zappo...
  • commandlinefan 6y ago
    > Very few people regret doing that Hmmm... well, I won't say that I necessarily regret it, but I was a bit trigger-happy in job-hopping right after college. It was the late 90's and programming jobs were REALLY easy to find, so if there was literally anything I didn't like about the job I had, I'd just go get another one. I ended up with four jobs in four years - and then when I decided to bail the fourth time, interviewers started noticing that I'd never been at one place longer than a year. I adopted a three-year policy after that - I'd keep a job for a minimum of three years before looking for another one. Even so, this actually came up during an interview (for a job I didn't get) just a few years ago even though it was 20 years in the past.
    • toast0 6y ago
      If you don't want 20 year old stuff coming up in interviews, make your resume section title Recent Experience or Relevant Experience, and leave off old stuff. Leave off the date you got your degree as well.
      • 6y ago
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• elefanten 6y ago
  This sounds obvious but it might be differentially applicable across cases. We have really drastically lowered the bar for what gets called "toxic", "dangerous", "harmful" or even "violent". This has happened steadily and with increasing speed over the last ~3 generations, in my subjective observations. I think the pendulum has swung too far with emotional and (now increasingly) ideological/theoretical safetyism. It will be interesting to see where the middle ground is, or whether it just results in collapse of competence and output. I hope I'm wrong but over time it feels like the latter is where we're heading.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • sbarre 6y ago
    I understand where you're coming from, but I will offer this counterpoint: I think that's ok. I think we can find ways to interact, collaborate, and work, that don't tolerate behaviours we wouldn't find acceptable in a social setting. I think raising the bar for acceptable behaviour is a good thing. And while people will abuse this (both intentionally and due to personal struggles), It's not like people weren't abusing things the old way too. I would rather have people take advantage of an _intolerance_ for toxicity than have people take advantage of a _tolerance_ for it.
    • marcod 6y ago
      Agreed, yes, conditions for workers have improved over the years. Being a good boss has become harder as the bar has been raised. Good.
  • pjc50 6y ago
    ... while continuing productivity increases across those years and achieving more things. And increasing the diversity of the workforce.
  • shortandsweet 6y ago
    I'd have to disagree with that. Everyone has their own threshold. No point in making yourself suffer over a job. I think it's a good thing people quit and leave rather than suck it up over an entire career.
• munk-a 6y ago
  I wanted to add another note to those that might be in middle management or otherwise have "corporate responsibility" feelings. I have worked at a number of organizations with bosses that I have genuinely liked and that have gone out of their way to make sure that employees are doing well - but this kindness is utterly optional and there is no obligation for two-way kindness. Any obligations you feel to keep your company healthy should be tied to your own interests - your continued employment and any active options/interest in the company you have. Promises of future rewards are entirely vaporware until realized and if you hit a really tough personal period the company won't think twice about letting you go so be conservative about how much of your life you're willing to spend bettering a company that could fire you tomorrow. That all said, don't be a dick about it.
• warmcat 6y ago
  I can relate to this. The experience seriously caused me trauma and I vowed to never stay in a place if it turns toxic.