7 ms·

Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Even with a masters and experience it takes 100+ applications. Most companies do

Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Even with a masters and experience it takes 100+ applications. Most companies don’t hire programmers and the ones that do often contract it out overseas. I know there are caveats and counter-anecdotes but this has been my set of observations over the last 10 years.

shiftpgdn 6y ago
It is beyond frustrating to me to see how many jobs get filled with fraudulent H1B employees when there is no shortage of entry level coders available domestically.
- ppeetteerr 6y ago
  They don't have to be fraudulent. It's easier to fill with an H1B candidate with experience than with a fresh engineer with a recent degree.
  - shiftpgdn 6y ago
    A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs are outright lying about their experience in the tech field. At least from my short time doing hiring for a position in Texas. I eventually went to our management and got them to stop listening to recruiting body shops and hire someone local.
    - kyawzazaw 6y ago
      > A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs How can you say that with such confidence? Maybe the issue is your workplace is using staffing agency, primarily?
      - shiftpgdn 6y ago
        Because I have been around a long time and know lots of other people in the software world who have had similar experiences.
        mav3rick 6y ago
        Okay. Extremely data driven approach.
    - sparrc 6y ago
      That hasn't been my experience at all.
    - desi_ninja 6y ago
      putting badly generalized data out with confidence. start people more (100k+)and see good h1b candidates. talent follows money.
xiphias2 6y ago
It's because the 10x engineer is real: many people learn coding just for earning money, not like 20 years ago when most people did it out of passion. This means that there are more people that can't provide enough business value to be justified in a tech company. At the same time they can use their coding skills to make non-tech office jobs more automated.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
sokoloff 6y ago
When I look over the interview and coding exercise results from entry-level applicants, I can understand how some of the candidates will apply and interview a lot before landing a role. There’s a pretty sharp clustering into “can very likely code” and “did not demonstrate they could productively code”.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  For many entry level tech jobs today, I think you'll find the bar is considerably higher.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    If the bar is considerably higher than "can very likely code", then I question whether those roles are actually entry-level. We hire dozens of entry level roles per year. That's our bar (of course, coupled with "is authorized to work where the role is").
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      For the typical company in California, you can expect to be tested on algorithmic knowledge for an entry-level job.
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        Is that "typical" or "top 10 highest-paying" company?
        whimsicalism 6y ago
        > Is that "typical" or "top 10 highest-paying" company? Many, many more than "top 10 highest-paying." But yes, generally for six figure entry level roles.
emidln 6y ago
In my experience hiring for jr webdev and full stack roles, about 1 in 5 people could pass fizzbuzz (even when the mathematical algorithm was explained in writing). About 1 in 100 completed the basic web app demo (untimed, take home, expected to take between 30 minutes and 2 hours, in any language, with a test suite included as a shell script). I often hired the first person even remotely qualified with the intent on teaching the gap because hiring took so long. This was in Chicago from about 2011 to 2018.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  Well how much were you all paying?
  - dudul 6y ago
    What does it have to do with the quality of the candidates? Salaries are often not discussed before the end of the process, especially for junior roles where applicants can rarely force the hiring manager/recruiter to disclose a budget.
    - swebs 6y ago
      They could just check Glassdoor.
    - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
      Even entry-level candidates have some idea of what jobs pay. Some recruiters are more circumspect, but a lot of them will give a salary range if you ask. That information can also be found on places like Glassdoor or by talking to acquaintances about the offers they got or getting second-hand accounts of offers that people got. That information can be pretty inaccurate, but people still make decisions based on it.
  - emidln 6y ago
    Around $115k to $125k, which was about market for non-finance.
MikeDelta 6y ago
There is a big difference between knowing coding syntax (for beginners that is typically what they call coding) and being able to write applications. A lot of false hope is raised like this. And even worse: there are programmes where they ask for money to teach people how to code and give them the false impression of getting a job easily.
WalterBright 6y ago
> Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Entry level jobs are available everywhere - contributing to open source programs. Of course, nobody is going to immediately write you a check for that. But once you build a track record of competent contributions, people will be willing to pay you for more, and may even hire you. I'm proud that many contributors to the D language have leveraged that into very well paying jobs.
- kyawzazaw 6y ago
  and how many is that? > But once you build a track record of competent contributions how hard is this? especially for the population who is in need of actual employment. I am a cs student and has worked professionally but even then making any meaningful contribution to any decent language is beyond what I can afford (time/energy/financial-wise). More often than not, there is a lack of documentation (yes, I know this can be something I can contribute), very strict requirements for any pull requests, etc.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    > how many is that? Dunno, I never kept track. But I also know that a big motivator for D Conference sponsors is recruiting, and a big reason people attend is to get recruited. It's a win all around. > how hard is this? It's as hard as you can handle. Of course, competently doing the harder things gets you more leet cred. > beyond what I can afford (time/energy/financial-wise). If you're out of work, you have the time, and it costs nothing to contribute. > very strict requirements for any pull requests That's right. We're only interested in quality professional work, as any business would. Sub-par work just causes the rest of us problems.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      WRT to the last point, just put what you can in a PR and we'll review it - always tell someone if you think they're wrong, but work just hard when helping them be right and the world ends up a better place.
  - 6y ago

shiftpgdn 6y ago

It is beyond frustrating to me to see how many jobs get filled with fraudulent H1B employees when there is no shortage of entry level coders available domestically.

ppeetteerr 6y ago
They don't have to be fraudulent. It's easier to fill with an H1B candidate with experience than with a fresh engineer with a recent degree.
- shiftpgdn 6y ago
  A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs are outright lying about their experience in the tech field. At least from my short time doing hiring for a position in Texas. I eventually went to our management and got them to stop listening to recruiting body shops and hire someone local.
  - kyawzazaw 6y ago
    > A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs How can you say that with such confidence? Maybe the issue is your workplace is using staffing agency, primarily?
    - shiftpgdn 6y ago
      Because I have been around a long time and know lots of other people in the software world who have had similar experiences.
      - mav3rick 6y ago
        Okay. Extremely data driven approach.
  - sparrc 6y ago
    That hasn't been my experience at all.
  - desi_ninja 6y ago
    putting badly generalized data out with confidence. start people more (100k+)and see good h1b candidates. talent follows money.

xiphias2 6y ago

It's because the 10x engineer is real: many people learn coding just for earning money, not like 20 years ago when most people did it out of passion. This means that there are more people that can't provide enough business value to be justified in a tech company. At the same time they can use their coding skills to make non-tech office jobs more automated.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

sokoloff 6y ago

When I look over the interview and coding exercise results from entry-level applicants, I can understand how some of the candidates will apply and interview a lot before landing a role. There’s a pretty sharp clustering into “can very likely code” and “did not demonstrate they could productively code”.

whimsicalism 6y ago
For many entry level tech jobs today, I think you'll find the bar is considerably higher.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sokoloff 6y ago
  If the bar is considerably higher than "can very likely code", then I question whether those roles are actually entry-level. We hire dozens of entry level roles per year. That's our bar (of course, coupled with "is authorized to work where the role is").
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    For the typical company in California, you can expect to be tested on algorithmic knowledge for an entry-level job.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Is that "typical" or "top 10 highest-paying" company?
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        > Is that "typical" or "top 10 highest-paying" company? Many, many more than "top 10 highest-paying." But yes, generally for six figure entry level roles.

emidln 6y ago

In my experience hiring for jr webdev and full stack roles, about 1 in 5 people could pass fizzbuzz (even when the mathematical algorithm was explained in writing). About 1 in 100 completed the basic web app demo (untimed, take home, expected to take between 30 minutes and 2 hours, in any language, with a test suite included as a shell script). I often hired the first person even remotely qualified with the intent on teaching the gap because hiring took so long. This was in Chicago from about 2011 to 2018.

whimsicalism 6y ago
Well how much were you all paying?
- dudul 6y ago
  What does it have to do with the quality of the candidates? Salaries are often not discussed before the end of the process, especially for junior roles where applicants can rarely force the hiring manager/recruiter to disclose a budget.
  - swebs 6y ago
    They could just check Glassdoor.
  - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
    Even entry-level candidates have some idea of what jobs pay. Some recruiters are more circumspect, but a lot of them will give a salary range if you ask. That information can also be found on places like Glassdoor or by talking to acquaintances about the offers they got or getting second-hand accounts of offers that people got. That information can be pretty inaccurate, but people still make decisions based on it.
- emidln 6y ago
  Around $115k to $125k, which was about market for non-finance.

MikeDelta 6y ago

There is a big difference between knowing coding syntax (for beginners that is typically what they call coding) and being able to write applications. A lot of false hope is raised like this. And even worse: there are programmes where they ask for money to teach people how to code and give them the false impression of getting a job easily.

WalterBright 6y ago

> Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Entry level jobs are available everywhere - contributing to open source programs. Of course, nobody is going to immediately write you a check for that. But once you build a track record of competent contributions, people will be willing to pay you for more, and may even hire you. I'm proud that many contributors to the D language have leveraged that into very well paying jobs.

kyawzazaw 6y ago
and how many is that? > But once you build a track record of competent contributions how hard is this? especially for the population who is in need of actual employment. I am a cs student and has worked professionally but even then making any meaningful contribution to any decent language is beyond what I can afford (time/energy/financial-wise). More often than not, there is a lack of documentation (yes, I know this can be something I can contribute), very strict requirements for any pull requests, etc.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  > how many is that? Dunno, I never kept track. But I also know that a big motivator for D Conference sponsors is recruiting, and a big reason people attend is to get recruited. It's a win all around. > how hard is this? It's as hard as you can handle. Of course, competently doing the harder things gets you more leet cred. > beyond what I can afford (time/energy/financial-wise). If you're out of work, you have the time, and it costs nothing to contribute. > very strict requirements for any pull requests That's right. We're only interested in quality professional work, as any business would. Sub-par work just causes the rest of us problems.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    WRT to the last point, just put what you can in a PR and we'll review it - always tell someone if you think they're wrong, but work just hard when helping them be right and the world ends up a better place.
- 6y ago