4 ms·

One thing I've noticed as I've learned other languages is that I've become very keenly aware of, for example, all of the different definitions/parts of speech o

by T-R 15y ago

One thing I've noticed as I've learned other languages is that I've become very keenly aware of, for example, all of the different definitions/parts of speech of the word "that" (each translates differently and takes different parts of speech as its object), and consequently how I structure my sentences. Of course, part of that could also be a result of my tendency to think about grammatical correctness in terms of type systems.

ma2rten 15y ago
Funny, because English is not my native language, but I would have no idea what the different meanings of 'that' would be.
- patio11 15y ago
  There are at least a dozen common constructions which use that. Indicative that: "Which apple do you want?" "That apple." "This apple?" "No, that apple." Causative that: "Why did you go to school?" "So that I could study Japanese." Antecedent that, where that takes the place of some concept which has come before: "Did you study Japanese?" "That is a given." "Never going to see it outside of literary constructions" that: "That which cannot be seen is more real than that which cannot be felt." Adjectival-clause-introducing that: "We are looking for two students that are studying language pedagogy." etc, etc English grammar, fun stuff.
  - Jun8 15y ago
    While looking at the Wikipedia entry for definite article, I found that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29#Definite_articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29#Definite_...) that was derived from þæt, the neuter singular form of the in Middle English. Fascinating stuff!
  - riffraff 15y ago
    pardon this non-native, but shouldn't "We are looking for two students that are studying language pedagogy." be "We are looking for two students _who_ are studying language pedagogy." or possibly _which_ ? Or are they equivalent?
    - T-R 15y ago
      In this case, 'who' and 'that' are mostly equivalent. If you're talking about a specific person, sometimes 'who' is the only choice, but here it probably doesn't matter. 'Which' wouldn't be used here because 'are studying language pedagogy' is restricting/filtering 'students', and so it's essential to the meaning of the sentence. 'Which' is used for clauses that add non-essential information. My shirt that is red is upstairs. My shirt, which is red, is upstairs. The first sentence is contrasting the subject with other shirts (..., but my blue shirt is not). In the second sentence, there's only one shirt being discussed - it happens to be red, but even if that information was left out, it wouldn't change what shirt you were discussing.
Jun8 15y ago
Interesting point. I read that somewhere that the usage of the in English is also a sore point for learners, and that even native speakers take 7-8 years to master its correct usage. When I read papers from non-native but fluent speakers, this is generally what gives them away.
- T-R 15y ago
  "The" is very much a sticking point for native speakers of languages that don't have a similar construct; i.e. a Spanish speaker wouldn't likely have trouble with it, but a Japanese or Korean speaker more likely would. The issue is 'a' vs 'the' vs nothing: he went to the school he went to a school he went to school All have very different meanings - "the" is effectively an adjective describing the specificity of the noun. The first describes a specific school, the second describes some not-yet-defined school, the third describes an abstract concept. 'Chocolate' is another example of this, where the issue extends to the use of words like 'some', 'how many', and 'how much' (countable vs. uncountable quantities). Even if a person understands these concepts, it's still difficult to propagate it through a sentence so that everything type-checks (subject-verb agreement, etc), especially if you're coming from a language that doesn't have this kind of redundancy. It gets even harder with hypotheticals, where sometimes one might switch between both singular/plural and non-specific/specific mid sentence, all while English lacks gender-neutral singular third-person pronouns. On top of this there are cases where the use of one over the other really just comes down to philosophy (whether native speakers of a language consider something distinct, concrete, or countable, or not). Similar issues come up with prepositions - which preposition goes with which verb differs even when describing the same concept in two very similar languages. (Best example I can think of at the moment is that in Japanese, people say "I bought it to her" instead of "I bought it for her"; I know English<->Spanish has similar issues, but my Spanish is rusty)
- ma2rten 15y ago
  Hmm, ... English is not my native language, but I don't think I have problems applying the work the. So I find that hard to imagine. However, my native languages are Dutch and German, which are probably the closest two languages to English in terms grammar. So, that could be a possible explanation. I read that children learn to pronounce the th sound quite late. And this is generally a give-away for of non-native speakers. Could it be that you are confusing this with that ?

by T-R 15y ago

ma2rten 15y ago

Funny, because English is not my native language, but I would have no idea what the different meanings of 'that' would be.

patio11 15y ago
There are at least a dozen common constructions which use that. Indicative that: "Which apple do you want?" "That apple." "This apple?" "No, that apple." Causative that: "Why did you go to school?" "So that I could study Japanese." Antecedent that, where that takes the place of some concept which has come before: "Did you study Japanese?" "That is a given." "Never going to see it outside of literary constructions" that: "That which cannot be seen is more real than that which cannot be felt." Adjectival-clause-introducing that: "We are looking for two students that are studying language pedagogy." etc, etc English grammar, fun stuff.
- Jun8 15y ago
  While looking at the Wikipedia entry for definite article, I found that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29#Definite_articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29#Definite_...) that was derived from þæt, the neuter singular form of the in Middle English. Fascinating stuff!
- riffraff 15y ago
  pardon this non-native, but shouldn't "We are looking for two students that are studying language pedagogy." be "We are looking for two students _who_ are studying language pedagogy." or possibly _which_ ? Or are they equivalent?
  - T-R 15y ago
    In this case, 'who' and 'that' are mostly equivalent. If you're talking about a specific person, sometimes 'who' is the only choice, but here it probably doesn't matter. 'Which' wouldn't be used here because 'are studying language pedagogy' is restricting/filtering 'students', and so it's essential to the meaning of the sentence. 'Which' is used for clauses that add non-essential information. My shirt that is red is upstairs. My shirt, which is red, is upstairs. The first sentence is contrasting the subject with other shirts (..., but my blue shirt is not). In the second sentence, there's only one shirt being discussed - it happens to be red, but even if that information was left out, it wouldn't change what shirt you were discussing.

Jun8 15y ago

Interesting point. I read that somewhere that the usage of the in English is also a sore point for learners, and that even native speakers take 7-8 years to master its correct usage. When I read papers from non-native but fluent speakers, this is generally what gives them away.

T-R 15y ago
"The" is very much a sticking point for native speakers of languages that don't have a similar construct; i.e. a Spanish speaker wouldn't likely have trouble with it, but a Japanese or Korean speaker more likely would. The issue is 'a' vs 'the' vs nothing: he went to the school he went to a school he went to school All have very different meanings - "the" is effectively an adjective describing the specificity of the noun. The first describes a specific school, the second describes some not-yet-defined school, the third describes an abstract concept. 'Chocolate' is another example of this, where the issue extends to the use of words like 'some', 'how many', and 'how much' (countable vs. uncountable quantities). Even if a person understands these concepts, it's still difficult to propagate it through a sentence so that everything type-checks (subject-verb agreement, etc), especially if you're coming from a language that doesn't have this kind of redundancy. It gets even harder with hypotheticals, where sometimes one might switch between both singular/plural and non-specific/specific mid sentence, all while English lacks gender-neutral singular third-person pronouns. On top of this there are cases where the use of one over the other really just comes down to philosophy (whether native speakers of a language consider something distinct, concrete, or countable, or not). Similar issues come up with prepositions - which preposition goes with which verb differs even when describing the same concept in two very similar languages. (Best example I can think of at the moment is that in Japanese, people say "I bought it to her" instead of "I bought it for her"; I know English<->Spanish has similar issues, but my Spanish is rusty)
ma2rten 15y ago
Hmm, ... English is not my native language, but I don't think I have problems applying the work the. So I find that hard to imagine. However, my native languages are Dutch and German, which are probably the closest two languages to English in terms grammar. So, that could be a possible explanation. I read that children learn to pronounce the th sound quite late. And this is generally a give-away for of non-native speakers. Could it be that you are confusing this with that ?