5 ms·

Is it wrong to demand features in open-source projects?

8 points by theabbie 6y ago

onion2k 6y ago
It's a shame the responses get bogged down in the semantics of the word 'demand'. Yes, obviously you shouldn't be going around demanding others do things you want. It's rude, and unproductive. A more interesting discussion would have happened if the question had been 'Is it wrong to ask for features in open source projects?'
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Demanding is a spectrum. There is the request, which is a humble suggestion, something of no consequence. But if you are heavily invested already in a project (e.g. your life in some way depends on it, note I’m not saying workflow because it doesn’t need to be work), it is in both parties’ interests for that weight to be communicated somehow. In the extreme case that might be, “I am going to have to stop using this application if X is not changed.” As a project maintainer, that’s a good thing to know since for every comment there are probably at least 10 silent participants with the same view.
pacamara619 6y ago
The privilege you get from owning a project is that you don't have to do shit for anyone if you don't want to. If you don't like the feature someone wants or don't want to work on a bug report, don't.
jdsully 6y ago
I run KeyDB which is a reasonably popular open source database. “Demands” are bad, I don’t work for you. But I love feature requests because the whole point is to make something people want. The best way to be sure of that is someone asking for it.
westurner 6y ago
Yes, it's wrong to demand something for nothing: that's entitlement, not business (which involves some sort of equitable exchange of goods and/or services). Better questions: How do I file a BUG report issue, create a feature ENHancement request issue, send a pull request with a typo fix, write DOCs and send a PR, write test cases for a bug report? How can I sponsor development of a feature? A project may define a `.github/FUNDING.yml`, which GitHub will display on the 'Sponsor' tab of the GitHub project. A project may also or instead include funding information in their /README.md. How do I ask IRC or a mailing list or issues how much and how long it would cost to develop a feature, if somebody had some international stablecoin and a limited term agreement? The answer may be something like, "thanks for the detailed use case or user story, that's on our roadmap, there are major issues blocking similar features and that's where the expense would be."
jitendrac 6y ago
Demand is wrong, but polite feature request is not. Just drop a polite feature request. if they are not ready/interested and its essential for you, you can build it or hire someone for it an may be push to main project. complementary contribution is great way to support OSS project.
- onion2k 6y ago
  if they are not ready/interested and its essential for you, you can build it or hire someone for it an may be push to main project I think this changes the problem significantly. A feature request is essentially asking people to put in effort for you; that shouldn't happen if you have other options. If you're in a position to build something yourself, or to pay someone to deliver a feature you need, then that should be your first choice. Alternatively, you could propose sponsoring the feature eg paying the project owners to build it. If the project owners are open to a merging the feature in to the project once it's complete that's great, everyone benefits from your effort/money, but requesting a feature that you could build yourself feels a bit wrong to me.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    When I’m managing a piece of spaghetti code, I entertain feature requests from a lot more people. It’s very difficult to add features to such code without breaking five different things. That’s not the requester’s fault. That’s the authors fault. I or the author made that bed, and somebody should goddamn well lie in it. By the time the code is cleaned up, I offer advice on how someone else might implement it, unless I find something deeply philosophically engaging about the feature proposal, like thinking of something even better than what they asked for. Getting mad at people who ask you to fix your own mess is a defense mechanism of people whose egos have outrun their abilities. I work with someone like that (and an enabler) and I will veto him ever working with me again. It’s a special kind of toxicity that feeds other people’s impostor syndrome.
    - jitendrac 6y ago
      yes, It happens. Just like rude users there also are rude developers. Once I tried the demo of a small CRM,I filed the bug related to it. Later Developer rudely showered me with comments like I am asking for free goodies and closed issue, and I later replaced my CRM with custom WordPress plugin ;). My suggestions to fellow developers; Every bug, feature request and question (good FAQ candidates) is the contributions, if you are not interested in accepting, just be upfront and polite.
zepto 6y ago
As has been pointed out elsewhere, ‘demand’ has a bunch of ambiguity around it. Generally it seems useful to a project owner to receive feature requests. They can be a source of ideas, and a signal about what users are doing with the code. As long as the owners feel free to do what they want with the requests, including ignore them, it’s not obvious what the harm is. However, ‘demand’ to me generally implies either rudeness, or a threat. Rudeness can be a bit subjective, but generally it’s a bad strategy for having an ongoing conversation with someone. Obsequiousness can be equally bad. Being respectful and attuned is better. Threats on the other hand, do seem wrong to me. Threats include things like ‘if you don’t include this, I’ll write posts impugning you’ etc.
hinkley 6y ago
OSS is free like attending a party is free. It works as long as they are finite. It’s a social activity, not a dumping ground for getting rid of something you worked on. We could have 500 open source programming languages but we don’t because these projects all compete for headspace, so most of them never get any “attendance” to speak of. Which means my entry to the arena affects yours. Just like if I threw a party on Friday knowing your birthday is Sunday. I’m not just putting it out there. There are consequences. I can demand that you have drinks and snacks at a party. And a functioning toilet. There are basic minimums of hospitality that we expect of a host. These standards are not always met by FOSS maintainers, and I bristle when they feel entitled to our respect but not our criticism. If you don’t meet certain expectations, people will talk, and nobody will be surprised that people talk. I can’t demand that you have Grape Crush and Flaming Cheetos. That’s rude, and if I insist on having very specific things then I can kindly fuck off and throw my own party.

8 points by theabbie 6y ago

It's a shame the responses get bogged down in the semantics of the word 'demand'. Yes, obviously you shouldn't be going around demanding others do things you want. It's rude, and unproductive. A more interesting discussion would have happened if the question had been 'Is it wrong to ask for features in open source projects?'

ironmagma 6y ago
Demanding is a spectrum. There is the request, which is a humble suggestion, something of no consequence. But if you are heavily invested already in a project (e.g. your life in some way depends on it, note I’m not saying workflow because it doesn’t need to be work), it is in both parties’ interests for that weight to be communicated somehow. In the extreme case that might be, “I am going to have to stop using this application if X is not changed.” As a project maintainer, that’s a good thing to know since for every comment there are probably at least 10 silent participants with the same view.

pacamara619 6y ago

The privilege you get from owning a project is that you don't have to do shit for anyone if you don't want to. If you don't like the feature someone wants or don't want to work on a bug report, don't.

jdsully 6y ago

I run KeyDB which is a reasonably popular open source database. “Demands” are bad, I don’t work for you. But I love feature requests because the whole point is to make something people want. The best way to be sure of that is someone asking for it.

westurner 6y ago

Yes, it's wrong to demand something for nothing: that's entitlement, not business (which involves some sort of equitable exchange of goods and/or services). Better questions: How do I file a BUG report issue, create a feature ENHancement request issue, send a pull request with a typo fix, write DOCs and send a PR, write test cases for a bug report? How can I sponsor development of a feature? A project may define a `.github/FUNDING.yml`, which GitHub will display on the 'Sponsor' tab of the GitHub project. A project may also or instead include funding information in their /README.md. How do I ask IRC or a mailing list or issues how much and how long it would cost to develop a feature, if somebody had some international stablecoin and a limited term agreement? The answer may be something like, "thanks for the detailed use case or user story, that's on our roadmap, there are major issues blocking similar features and that's where the expense would be."

jitendrac 6y ago

Demand is wrong, but polite feature request is not. Just drop a polite feature request. if they are not ready/interested and its essential for you, you can build it or hire someone for it an may be push to main project. complementary contribution is great way to support OSS project.

onion2k 6y ago
if they are not ready/interested and its essential for you, you can build it or hire someone for it an may be push to main project I think this changes the problem significantly. A feature request is essentially asking people to put in effort for you; that shouldn't happen if you have other options. If you're in a position to build something yourself, or to pay someone to deliver a feature you need, then that should be your first choice. Alternatively, you could propose sponsoring the feature eg paying the project owners to build it. If the project owners are open to a merging the feature in to the project once it's complete that's great, everyone benefits from your effort/money, but requesting a feature that you could build yourself feels a bit wrong to me.
- hinkley 6y ago
  When I’m managing a piece of spaghetti code, I entertain feature requests from a lot more people. It’s very difficult to add features to such code without breaking five different things. That’s not the requester’s fault. That’s the authors fault. I or the author made that bed, and somebody should goddamn well lie in it. By the time the code is cleaned up, I offer advice on how someone else might implement it, unless I find something deeply philosophically engaging about the feature proposal, like thinking of something even better than what they asked for. Getting mad at people who ask you to fix your own mess is a defense mechanism of people whose egos have outrun their abilities. I work with someone like that (and an enabler) and I will veto him ever working with me again. It’s a special kind of toxicity that feeds other people’s impostor syndrome.
  - jitendrac 6y ago
    yes, It happens. Just like rude users there also are rude developers. Once I tried the demo of a small CRM,I filed the bug related to it. Later Developer rudely showered me with comments like I am asking for free goodies and closed issue, and I later replaced my CRM with custom WordPress plugin ;). My suggestions to fellow developers; Every bug, feature request and question (good FAQ candidates) is the contributions, if you are not interested in accepting, just be upfront and polite.

zepto 6y ago

As has been pointed out elsewhere, ‘demand’ has a bunch of ambiguity around it. Generally it seems useful to a project owner to receive feature requests. They can be a source of ideas, and a signal about what users are doing with the code. As long as the owners feel free to do what they want with the requests, including ignore them, it’s not obvious what the harm is. However, ‘demand’ to me generally implies either rudeness, or a threat. Rudeness can be a bit subjective, but generally it’s a bad strategy for having an ongoing conversation with someone. Obsequiousness can be equally bad. Being respectful and attuned is better. Threats on the other hand, do seem wrong to me. Threats include things like ‘if you don’t include this, I’ll write posts impugning you’ etc.

hinkley 6y ago

OSS is free like attending a party is free. It works as long as they are finite. It’s a social activity, not a dumping ground for getting rid of something you worked on. We could have 500 open source programming languages but we don’t because these projects all compete for headspace, so most of them never get any “attendance” to speak of. Which means my entry to the arena affects yours. Just like if I threw a party on Friday knowing your birthday is Sunday. I’m not just putting it out there. There are consequences. I can demand that you have drinks and snacks at a party. And a functioning toilet. There are basic minimums of hospitality that we expect of a host. These standards are not always met by FOSS maintainers, and I bristle when they feel entitled to our respect but not our criticism. If you don’t meet certain expectations, people will talk, and nobody will be surprised that people talk. I can’t demand that you have Grape Crush and Flaming Cheetos. That’s rude, and if I insist on having very specific things then I can kindly fuck off and throw my own party.