6 ms·

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

by fmajid 6y ago

Arun2009 6y ago
Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.
- margalabargala 6y ago
  I don't think that's a fair assessment of Islam. The whole issue seems to be an internal argument among the Muslim community- so Islam is a necessary precondition for this problem, as it's the subject matter of the issue, but not the causative agent.
  - sbmthakur 6y ago
    It's no longer an internal argument among Muslims. Laws of various countries do not identify Ahmadiyyas as non-Muslims.
- yorwba 6y ago
  The list of countries in that article also includes Belarus, Belgium and Bulgaria, where the common factor seems to have been Islamophobia instead.
  - devlopr 6y ago
    That's an issue affects all muslims in those countries and many non-muslims who may appear that way. Islam does have a huge internal debate over which branch is correct that has never been settled. To not accept this group of people is unique in Islamic countries because they have been using this as a weapon against minorities by creating separate laws. By extending to other muslims this is more about trying to make them lower members of society with less rights and an excuse for mistreatment without breaking religious morals. You are allowed to do things to non muslims that wouldn't be acceptable to a muslims.
    - fmajid 6y ago
      Conversely, falsely accusing a Muslim of being an apostate is itself considered as grave a sin as apostasy itself. Sadly, that has not proven a deterrent for the Wahhabi takfiris, bankrolled by the oil wealth of the Saudi state. Excommunication and intolerance is not at all exclusive to Islam, as the blood-drenched history of the Wars of Religion in Europe demonstrates.
- Veen 6y ago
  Yes, it's unfortunately not that unusual in the UK. An Ahmadi shopkeeper was killed in 2016 by a Sunni taxi driver motivated by the shopkeeper's "heresy" [0]. A London mosque got into trouble last year for distributing 'kill Ahmadis' leaflets [1] [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/09/tanveer-ahmed-jailed-for-murder-glasgow-shopkeeper-in-sectarian-attack https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/09/tanveer-ahme... [1]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47654430 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47654430
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't cross into religious flamewar in HN comments. Your comment would be fine without the last sentence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ycombigator 6y ago
Censorship I don't like...
- echelon 6y ago
  If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Big platforms should be common carriers. If content is illegal, tell the FBI or get your lawyer to sue for damages. Similarly, if an American company can't operate overseas without trampling on basic rights and civil liberties, they shouldn't be doing business there. I'm a liberal and side with Stallman and the FSF. Censorship, monopoly power, and fascism are bad. Don't defend the instances of it you like. It's all bad.
  - sanxiyn 6y ago
    Note that content in question here is, in fact, illegal in Pakistan.
  - unethical_ban 6y ago
    Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion, and I'll start being concerned. As long as people of any party regurgitate lies about election results against all evidence, and those lies seem to be fomenting violence, I'm leaning towards "it's okay" to remove them from certain sites. I disagree the big platforms should be common carriers. I think ISPs and datacenters should be.
    - criddell 6y ago
      > Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion Have you considered that their political philosophy has changed to exactly the things you listed?
baybal2 6y ago
I'd say I always found it strange how Ahmadis are universally persecuted in Pak, but a dozen way more funnier sects thrive. You constantly see some weird pirs, and "faith healers" on TV in Pakistan.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  Are there still those wall chalkings for "aamil Junaid Bengali" all over Karachi? Edit: I guess not - https://www.dawn.com/news/918676/faith-healer-gets-three-years-in-jail-for-fraud https://www.dawn.com/news/918676/faith-healer-gets-three-yea...
  - baybal2 6y ago
    There are few dozens of Junaid Bengalis at any given time. Last time been in the country in 2017, and some weird molana promising salvation for 5 lakh rupee was holding a rally in Islamabad right at the time I arrived.

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

by fmajid 6y ago

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

Arun2009 6y ago

Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.

margalabargala 6y ago
I don't think that's a fair assessment of Islam. The whole issue seems to be an internal argument among the Muslim community- so Islam is a necessary precondition for this problem, as it's the subject matter of the issue, but not the causative agent.
- sbmthakur 6y ago
  It's no longer an internal argument among Muslims. Laws of various countries do not identify Ahmadiyyas as non-Muslims.
yorwba 6y ago
The list of countries in that article also includes Belarus, Belgium and Bulgaria, where the common factor seems to have been Islamophobia instead.
- devlopr 6y ago
  That's an issue affects all muslims in those countries and many non-muslims who may appear that way. Islam does have a huge internal debate over which branch is correct that has never been settled. To not accept this group of people is unique in Islamic countries because they have been using this as a weapon against minorities by creating separate laws. By extending to other muslims this is more about trying to make them lower members of society with less rights and an excuse for mistreatment without breaking religious morals. You are allowed to do things to non muslims that wouldn't be acceptable to a muslims.
  - fmajid 6y ago
    Conversely, falsely accusing a Muslim of being an apostate is itself considered as grave a sin as apostasy itself. Sadly, that has not proven a deterrent for the Wahhabi takfiris, bankrolled by the oil wealth of the Saudi state. Excommunication and intolerance is not at all exclusive to Islam, as the blood-drenched history of the Wars of Religion in Europe demonstrates.
Veen 6y ago
Yes, it's unfortunately not that unusual in the UK. An Ahmadi shopkeeper was killed in 2016 by a Sunni taxi driver motivated by the shopkeeper's "heresy" [0]. A London mosque got into trouble last year for distributing 'kill Ahmadis' leaflets [1] [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/09/tanveer-ahmed-jailed-for-murder-glasgow-shopkeeper-in-sectarian-attack https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/09/tanveer-ahme... [1]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47654430 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47654430
dang 6y ago
Please don't cross into religious flamewar in HN comments. Your comment would be fine without the last sentence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ycombigator 6y ago

Censorship I don't like...

echelon 6y ago
If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Big platforms should be common carriers. If content is illegal, tell the FBI or get your lawyer to sue for damages. Similarly, if an American company can't operate overseas without trampling on basic rights and civil liberties, they shouldn't be doing business there. I'm a liberal and side with Stallman and the FSF. Censorship, monopoly power, and fascism are bad. Don't defend the instances of it you like. It's all bad.
- sanxiyn 6y ago
  Note that content in question here is, in fact, illegal in Pakistan.
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion, and I'll start being concerned. As long as people of any party regurgitate lies about election results against all evidence, and those lies seem to be fomenting violence, I'm leaning towards "it's okay" to remove them from certain sites. I disagree the big platforms should be common carriers. I think ISPs and datacenters should be.
  - criddell 6y ago
    > Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion Have you considered that their political philosophy has changed to exactly the things you listed?

baybal2 6y ago

I'd say I always found it strange how Ahmadis are universally persecuted in Pak, but a dozen way more funnier sects thrive. You constantly see some weird pirs, and "faith healers" on TV in Pakistan.

selimthegrim 6y ago
Are there still those wall chalkings for "aamil Junaid Bengali" all over Karachi? Edit: I guess not - https://www.dawn.com/news/918676/faith-healer-gets-three-years-in-jail-for-fraud https://www.dawn.com/news/918676/faith-healer-gets-three-yea...
- baybal2 6y ago
  There are few dozens of Junaid Bengalis at any given time. Last time been in the country in 2017, and some weird molana promising salvation for 5 lakh rupee was holding a rally in Islamabad right at the time I arrived.