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I already think that has happened for companies and startups, but I don't think much progress at all has been made for individuals. I'm not seeing it. Newspape

by pfranz 6y ago

I already think that has happened for companies and startups, but I don't think much progress at all has been made for individuals. I'm not seeing it. Newspapers and cable both heavily rely on ads. Credit card fees eat up way too much for small transactions. I had hoped Paypal would have addressed this 20 years ago. They seemed best positioned to bypass traditional credit card companies. Cryptocurrencies seem like it technically could work, but I don't see that happening. One way around is the iTunes model. Where everything is bundled under a single company (Apple) that negotiates and/or batches transactions with credit card companies--or eats the fee on small transactions as a loss leader for larger ones. Patreon seems like a decent candidate for this. Another benefit of a centralized model is trust an familiarity. I'm more likely to use Apple or Patreon for subscriptions because individual companies suck with alerting you before reoccurring payments or letting you cancel. How do you see the money side playing out?

KirillPanov 6y ago
> Newspapers and cable both heavily rely on ads ... Cryptocurrencies seem like it technically could work, but I don't see that happening. Because of the fundamental asymmetry in the law: advertising+tracking don't require AML/KYC, cryptocurrencies (mostly) do. If your users pay you with their attention or tracking data, you're not required to verify their identities, ask them if they're terrorists, store copies of their passports in some hacker-magnet database, or any of that. If your users pay you with cryptocurrencies you have to do all of that. The problem isn't a business problem or a technological problem, it's a regulatory problem. This outrageous double standard is massively subsidizing the adtech-surveillance monster. Require AML/KYC be performed on users before ads can be shown to them, and if ads are shown or data collected without AML/KYC, impose the same "corporate death penalty" allowed for AML/KYC failures. Or else eliminate AML/KYC for cryptocurrencies.
- pfranz 6y ago
  The use case I was thinking of for individuals is more like paying a nickel to read an article. I'm not really familiar with AML/KYC requirements, but I'm not sure I see the need. I would imagine most people would want a basic account so they could revisit paid content later. Any laundering would get caught looking at your business' finances (what you do with the money) or tracking crypto accounts in a more traditional manor. I've used cryptocurrencies here and there for online services (merch and digital services) and don't remember any additional scrutiny. I reasons I had in mind are the confusion and overhead of using crypto for the average person. I guess if there were some regulatory requirements in a made-up "ideal" scenario, I would see it mirroring existing banks and credit cards where your source wallet was from a "sanctioned" account to track location for local taxes and whatnot. The onus wouldn't be put on the business other than having an allowlist (by prefix or something)--but none of that exists. I would think a lot more structure an institutions would need to exist anyway to make cryptocurrencies more palatable to individuals.
  - KirillPanov 6y ago
    Brave got a tap on the shoulder from the government and was told they had to collect all that data in order to release crypto payments to the owners of the websites they'd been collecting micropayments for: https://preview.redd.it/52bkflf0cld31.jpg?width=462&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b37760e51e638b965ca2ad0b37f4de00d77b885 https://preview.redd.it/52bkflf0cld31.jpg?width=462&format=p... https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032158891-What-is-KYC- https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032158891-Wha... I disagree with a lot of Brave's approach. However their experience shows that this problem isn't theoretical. One company has already managed to deliver frictionless micropayments, and was told by the government that if they didn't add some friction back in (AML/KYC), executives would be going to prison. Not cool. This also led to a real mess with the operators of archive.today, who don't live in the USA and apparently aren't supported by the AML/KYC process being used. So a fairly large amount of money collected in order to support them is stuck and can't be paid out: https://blog.archive.today/post/626174398020403200/please-provide-all-the-details-about-how-brave https://blog.archive.today/post/626174398020403200/please-pr...
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  AML: anti-money laundering KYC: know your customers

by pfranz 6y ago

KirillPanov 6y ago

> Newspapers and cable both heavily rely on ads ... Cryptocurrencies seem like it technically could work, but I don't see that happening. Because of the fundamental asymmetry in the law: advertising+tracking don't require AML/KYC, cryptocurrencies (mostly) do. If your users pay you with their attention or tracking data, you're not required to verify their identities, ask them if they're terrorists, store copies of their passports in some hacker-magnet database, or any of that. If your users pay you with cryptocurrencies you have to do all of that. The problem isn't a business problem or a technological problem, it's a regulatory problem. This outrageous double standard is massively subsidizing the adtech-surveillance monster. Require AML/KYC be performed on users before ads can be shown to them, and if ads are shown or data collected without AML/KYC, impose the same "corporate death penalty" allowed for AML/KYC failures. Or else eliminate AML/KYC for cryptocurrencies.

pfranz 6y ago
The use case I was thinking of for individuals is more like paying a nickel to read an article. I'm not really familiar with AML/KYC requirements, but I'm not sure I see the need. I would imagine most people would want a basic account so they could revisit paid content later. Any laundering would get caught looking at your business' finances (what you do with the money) or tracking crypto accounts in a more traditional manor. I've used cryptocurrencies here and there for online services (merch and digital services) and don't remember any additional scrutiny. I reasons I had in mind are the confusion and overhead of using crypto for the average person. I guess if there were some regulatory requirements in a made-up "ideal" scenario, I would see it mirroring existing banks and credit cards where your source wallet was from a "sanctioned" account to track location for local taxes and whatnot. The onus wouldn't be put on the business other than having an allowlist (by prefix or something)--but none of that exists. I would think a lot more structure an institutions would need to exist anyway to make cryptocurrencies more palatable to individuals.
- KirillPanov 6y ago
  Brave got a tap on the shoulder from the government and was told they had to collect all that data in order to release crypto payments to the owners of the websites they'd been collecting micropayments for: https://preview.redd.it/52bkflf0cld31.jpg?width=462&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b37760e51e638b965ca2ad0b37f4de00d77b885 https://preview.redd.it/52bkflf0cld31.jpg?width=462&format=p... https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032158891-What-is-KYC- https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032158891-Wha... I disagree with a lot of Brave's approach. However their experience shows that this problem isn't theoretical. One company has already managed to deliver frictionless micropayments, and was told by the government that if they didn't add some friction back in (AML/KYC), executives would be going to prison. Not cool. This also led to a real mess with the operators of archive.today, who don't live in the USA and apparently aren't supported by the AML/KYC process being used. So a fairly large amount of money collected in order to support them is stuck and can't be paid out: https://blog.archive.today/post/626174398020403200/please-provide-all-the-details-about-how-brave https://blog.archive.today/post/626174398020403200/please-pr...
dredmorbius 6y ago
AML: anti-money laundering KYC: know your customers