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The Universal Warrior: The Many Faces of Battle

46 points by parsecs 6y ago

nl 6y ago
In the Hardcore History series about the Perisan/Greek wars ("King of Kings"), Dan Carlin talks about how the Athenian hoplites at Marathon (I think) were mostly amateur, and much of what we know about the battle is from anecdotes about things that happened like the guy who threw up in his helmet before the battle etc. But the people mentioned in the plays didn't seem to mind, because it confirmed that they were in the line at Marathon.
- yodon 6y ago
  +1 for Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast
- baud147258 6y ago
  from what I remember, nearly all hoplites were amateurs, in the sense they weren't professional soldiers, but rather citizen levies called in time of conflicts (I think Sparta's the exception)
  - User23 6y ago
    Wasn't the professional hoplite one of Philip of Macedon's innovations? That's long after Marathon.
    - smogcutter 6y ago
      Even before Philip, plenty of hoplites served as mercenaries. Xenophon’s Anabasis is a great example.
  - smogcutter 6y ago
    Even the Spartiates were essentially a citizen levy: afaik the difference vs say, the Athenians, is that the spartiates were a tiny permanent leisure class. In the Athenian phalanx you’d be in the line next to the potter, the sandal maker, the rhetor, etc., similar to the portion of the Spartan phalanx made up of the perioikoi. The Spartiates themselves though did no work at all, and despised those who did. That doesn’t make them a standing army though, and they didn’t train or drill when they weren’t actively on campaign any more than other hoplites.
arminiusreturns 6y ago
Meh, while I appreciate the authors deep thinking and work on the topic, I disagree with his conclusion that there isn't a universal warrior due to different kinds of war and different kinds of courage and bravery culturally influenced by those different types. While there is sure to be a certain amount of variance between the kinds of people who are considered brave because of this, I think it is an archetype as Carl Jung talks about (he called it the Hero archetype of which the warrior is a subset) that applies throughout cultures and type of warfare. While I haven't ventured through time, I have grown up in the lands of those of what the author calls the first system of war, but have been trained in and participated in modern war, I see the type of person as being very much similar from both my limited reading of history and first-hand accounts of both bravery and cowardice. A good article with a lackluster conclusion. I will say that the author is relatively spot on about hypervigilance, and as I stated before, my conversations with native americans of various tribes have generally agreed with his conclusion of the similarities in modern war. For example, it took me over ten years after getting out of the military to not wake up and pace the permiter of my house multiple times a night. I still do it when I'm stressed. I would also say there is a lot to be said for the effects of TBI compounded upon combat stress or trauma. The level of explosions just didn't exist the way they do today. I've seen guys walk away from a humvee completely intact but never the same again from it. Almost even more terrifying than constantly expecting a rocket or IED or ambush is coming home to a people who don't even understand or know what kind of horrors we have been up to in their name, continuing life as if nothing has or is happening, and having to listen to people pontificate on the subject of war (including politics) when you know the dirty, dark side of it all, while trying to pretend you are a normal person. How do you think my silicon valley co-workers would look at me if they knew the truth of the things we did, and continue to do, in their name, despite what R or D prepends some puppet presidents name at the time? So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal. One probable universal about the universal warrior; the real challenge isn't the battlefield, it's home afterwards.
- kodah 6y ago
  > How do you think my silicon valley co-workers would look at me if they knew the truth of the things we did, and continue to do, in their name, despite what R or D prepends some puppet presidents name at the time? So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal Well, at least know you're not alone in this.
UweSchmidt 6y ago
Even if it doesn't fit in a historic article about "warriors", I think modern information warfare deserves a mention. The latest face of battle is taking control of, or attacking platforms and individuals online, creating content, supporting and steering movements, take part in discussions with automated bots or trained operators. Lots of data science, automation, machine learning, chat bots, some cryptography occasionally.
- xyzzy123 6y ago
  I'm not convinced that "12th salty meme battalion" shitposting from their secure basement (moooom it's called a SCIF!) really have a similar experience to anyone described in the post. On the other hand, there is definitely a universal information warfare experience, I think (so, I agree with you). All the 90's hackers I know used to think it was about the bits and bytes and buffer overflows and making the computer do stuff - and got blindsided when it turned out the important "battleground" was and still is in the human mind. At least until the power goes out. All that stuff will be worms and pre-established access and will happen really fast.
  - KineticLensman 6y ago
    > "12th salty meme battalion" A.k.a. the British Army 77th Bde? [0] Remote pilots flying Reaper / Predator vehicles from their home bases are another example that would be interesting to study. They fly missions that can involve lethal Hellfire attacks for a few hours a day and then 'go home' to their families. [0] https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-brigades/6th-united-kingdom-division/77-brigade/ https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-brig...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
FrozenVoid 6y ago
Is 'warrior archetype' just mild psychopathy? Symptoms: Boldness, lack of empathy, inclination to violence and manipulation, impulsivity
icefrakker 6y ago
This guy's writing sucks. I don't know why it's so popular here, besides the fact that men that have never seen war never tire of hearing other people who have never seen war talk about their idea of what war is.

46 points by parsecs 6y ago

nl 6y ago

In the Hardcore History series about the Perisan/Greek wars ("King of Kings"), Dan Carlin talks about how the Athenian hoplites at Marathon (I think) were mostly amateur, and much of what we know about the battle is from anecdotes about things that happened like the guy who threw up in his helmet before the battle etc. But the people mentioned in the plays didn't seem to mind, because it confirmed that they were in the line at Marathon.

yodon 6y ago
+1 for Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast
baud147258 6y ago
from what I remember, nearly all hoplites were amateurs, in the sense they weren't professional soldiers, but rather citizen levies called in time of conflicts (I think Sparta's the exception)
- User23 6y ago
  Wasn't the professional hoplite one of Philip of Macedon's innovations? That's long after Marathon.
  - smogcutter 6y ago
    Even before Philip, plenty of hoplites served as mercenaries. Xenophon’s Anabasis is a great example.
- smogcutter 6y ago
  Even the Spartiates were essentially a citizen levy: afaik the difference vs say, the Athenians, is that the spartiates were a tiny permanent leisure class. In the Athenian phalanx you’d be in the line next to the potter, the sandal maker, the rhetor, etc., similar to the portion of the Spartan phalanx made up of the perioikoi. The Spartiates themselves though did no work at all, and despised those who did. That doesn’t make them a standing army though, and they didn’t train or drill when they weren’t actively on campaign any more than other hoplites.

arminiusreturns 6y ago

Meh, while I appreciate the authors deep thinking and work on the topic, I disagree with his conclusion that there isn't a universal warrior due to different kinds of war and different kinds of courage and bravery culturally influenced by those different types. While there is sure to be a certain amount of variance between the kinds of people who are considered brave because of this, I think it is an archetype as Carl Jung talks about (he called it the Hero archetype of which the warrior is a subset) that applies throughout cultures and type of warfare. While I haven't ventured through time, I have grown up in the lands of those of what the author calls the first system of war, but have been trained in and participated in modern war, I see the type of person as being very much similar from both my limited reading of history and first-hand accounts of both bravery and cowardice. A good article with a lackluster conclusion. I will say that the author is relatively spot on about hypervigilance, and as I stated before, my conversations with native americans of various tribes have generally agreed with his conclusion of the similarities in modern war. For example, it took me over ten years after getting out of the military to not wake up and pace the permiter of my house multiple times a night. I still do it when I'm stressed. I would also say there is a lot to be said for the effects of TBI compounded upon combat stress or trauma. The level of explosions just didn't exist the way they do today. I've seen guys walk away from a humvee completely intact but never the same again from it. Almost even more terrifying than constantly expecting a rocket or IED or ambush is coming home to a people who don't even understand or know what kind of horrors we have been up to in their name, continuing life as if nothing has or is happening, and having to listen to people pontificate on the subject of war (including politics) when you know the dirty, dark side of it all, while trying to pretend you are a normal person. How do you think my silicon valley co-workers would look at me if they knew the truth of the things we did, and continue to do, in their name, despite what R or D prepends some puppet presidents name at the time? So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal. One probable universal about the universal warrior; the real challenge isn't the battlefield, it's home afterwards.

kodah 6y ago
> How do you think my silicon valley co-workers would look at me if they knew the truth of the things we did, and continue to do, in their name, despite what R or D prepends some puppet presidents name at the time? So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal Well, at least know you're not alone in this.

UweSchmidt 6y ago

Even if it doesn't fit in a historic article about "warriors", I think modern information warfare deserves a mention. The latest face of battle is taking control of, or attacking platforms and individuals online, creating content, supporting and steering movements, take part in discussions with automated bots or trained operators. Lots of data science, automation, machine learning, chat bots, some cryptography occasionally.

xyzzy123 6y ago
I'm not convinced that "12th salty meme battalion" shitposting from their secure basement (moooom it's called a SCIF!) really have a similar experience to anyone described in the post. On the other hand, there is definitely a universal information warfare experience, I think (so, I agree with you). All the 90's hackers I know used to think it was about the bits and bytes and buffer overflows and making the computer do stuff - and got blindsided when it turned out the important "battleground" was and still is in the human mind. At least until the power goes out. All that stuff will be worms and pre-established access and will happen really fast.
- KineticLensman 6y ago
  > "12th salty meme battalion" A.k.a. the British Army 77th Bde? [0] Remote pilots flying Reaper / Predator vehicles from their home bases are another example that would be interesting to study. They fly missions that can involve lethal Hellfire attacks for a few hours a day and then 'go home' to their families. [0] https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-brigades/6th-united-kingdom-division/77-brigade/ https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-brig...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

FrozenVoid 6y ago

Is 'warrior archetype' just mild psychopathy? Symptoms: Boldness, lack of empathy, inclination to violence and manipulation, impulsivity

icefrakker 6y ago

This guy's writing sucks. I don't know why it's so popular here, besides the fact that men that have never seen war never tire of hearing other people who have never seen war talk about their idea of what war is.