5 ms·

Walmart/Meth is a pretty strong exaggeration. Things aren’t great without a degree, but they’re not (yet) impossible.

phs318u 6y ago
We're straying way off-topic here but I'd suggest that things are pretty terrible for significant numbers of people. As evidence (I'm not US-ian), I present this article [0], which actually tries to make the point that living standards have never been better. In my view, he fails, specifically with the following statement in para 5, "There would surely be a revolution in America if 90% of our citizens have suffered income stagnation or worse". I'd suggest that recent events and the fact that many tens of millions of people supported (and still support) Donald Trump, are proof of a slow-motion revolution in progress - a kind of cold-civil-war. So, maybe parent was being colourful with the "Walmart/meth" exaggeration, but in terms of "effective equivalence" I'd say they are close to the mark. [0] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-living-standards-are-at-an-all-time-high-heres-proof-2019-05-02 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-living-standards...
- ryandrake 6y ago
  Yea it was a little exaggeration, but the trend is in the wrong direction. If things don't change, we're going to have no middle class in 20-30 years and probably full-on Elysium in 50-70 years.
  - jonfw 6y ago
    Too focused on relative income distribution, not enough on standards of living. Americans live in bigger houses with fewer people living in them, they own smart phones, cars, huge TVs, appliances, HVAC, video games, plenty of clothes. They get their goods delivered straight to their door, they have their food grown and prepared for them. This is an accurate description of lower class Americans. While income inequality is real and worsening, I'm still not seeing evidence that this leads to bad outcomes.
    - jtxxwl2 6y ago
      So, lots of bread and circuses. Are they healthy? Are their grandchildren and great-grandchildren going to inherit a civilization that they would want to be born in to?
      - jonfw 6y ago
        If a dog is fat it's somebody else's fault, if a person is fat it's their fault. > Are their grandchildren and great-grandchildren going to inherit a civilization that they would want to be born in to? How should I know how people's unborn children feel about a society which doesn't exist yet?
        jtxxwl2 6y ago
        >If a dog is fat it's somebody else's fault, if a person is fat it's their fault. I don't really care whom you blame, I care about the results. Our society could do much more to stop people from being fat and unhealthy, yet 70% of the country is overweight, and more people have chronic health problems than don't. >How should I know how people's unborn children feel about a society which doesn't exist yet? I'm not asking how the unborn children feel, I'm asking whether the existing people would want to be born into the civilization which they expect that their grandchildren and great-grandchildren will inherit.
        jonfw 6y ago
        > don't really care whom you blame, I care about the results. Our society could do much more to stop people from being fat and unhealthy, yet 70% of the country is overweight, and more people have chronic health problems than don't. Unless you want members of society to walk around smacking soda and fried potato products out of people's hands, I'm not sure that I agree. If we want to pool our resources as a people to solve problems for others, let's start with water scarcity, unstable/oppressive governments, and renewable energy. Please don't sign me up for forcing people onto weight watchers plans.
        6y ago
- refurb 6y ago
  So you don’t live in the US and only get your information from the media (who don’t sell clicks by saying everything is fine) but you’re willing to make bold statements about how we’re on the edge of a civil war?
  - mattmanser 6y ago
    Its often much easier looking in to see the problems than looking out. I would say that's also the impression I get too watching/reading your fox/CNN/CNBC channels. Here in the UK we're suffering from the same malady and what brought this into focus for me was Brexit + the Grenfell fire. Suddenly I saw people like those from my poor home town on TV (at one point it had the 3rd highest unemployment in the UK). And I hadn't seen anyone like that on TV for years. People with few opportunities, people ALL the UK media had been ignoring because they're not university educated and they say uncomfortable things. When Jon Snow, a well know TV journalist over here, spoke about his experience meeting the Grenfell survivors and the accusations he had to face that they'd tried to talk to the press and been ignored, it really brought it into focus: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/jon-snow-grenfell-mactaggart-media-diversity https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/jon-snow-grenf...

We're straying way off-topic here but I'd suggest that things are pretty terrible for significant numbers of people. As evidence (I'm not US-ian), I present this article [0], which actually tries to make the point that living standards have never been better. In my view, he fails, specifically with the following statement in para 5, "There would surely be a revolution in America if 90% of our citizens have suffered income stagnation or worse". I'd suggest that recent events and the fact that many tens of millions of people supported (and still support) Donald Trump, are proof of a slow-motion revolution in progress - a kind of cold-civil-war. So, maybe parent was being colourful with the "Walmart/meth" exaggeration, but in terms of "effective equivalence" I'd say they are close to the mark. [0] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-living-standards-are-at-an-all-time-high-heres-proof-2019-05-02 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-living-standards...

ryandrake 6y ago
Yea it was a little exaggeration, but the trend is in the wrong direction. If things don't change, we're going to have no middle class in 20-30 years and probably full-on Elysium in 50-70 years.
- jonfw 6y ago
  Too focused on relative income distribution, not enough on standards of living. Americans live in bigger houses with fewer people living in them, they own smart phones, cars, huge TVs, appliances, HVAC, video games, plenty of clothes. They get their goods delivered straight to their door, they have their food grown and prepared for them. This is an accurate description of lower class Americans. While income inequality is real and worsening, I'm still not seeing evidence that this leads to bad outcomes.
  - jtxxwl2 6y ago
    So, lots of bread and circuses. Are they healthy? Are their grandchildren and great-grandchildren going to inherit a civilization that they would want to be born in to?
    - jonfw 6y ago
      If a dog is fat it's somebody else's fault, if a person is fat it's their fault. > Are their grandchildren and great-grandchildren going to inherit a civilization that they would want to be born in to? How should I know how people's unborn children feel about a society which doesn't exist yet?
      - jtxxwl2 6y ago
        >If a dog is fat it's somebody else's fault, if a person is fat it's their fault. I don't really care whom you blame, I care about the results. Our society could do much more to stop people from being fat and unhealthy, yet 70% of the country is overweight, and more people have chronic health problems than don't. >How should I know how people's unborn children feel about a society which doesn't exist yet? I'm not asking how the unborn children feel, I'm asking whether the existing people would want to be born into the civilization which they expect that their grandchildren and great-grandchildren will inherit.
        jonfw 6y ago
        > don't really care whom you blame, I care about the results. Our society could do much more to stop people from being fat and unhealthy, yet 70% of the country is overweight, and more people have chronic health problems than don't. Unless you want members of society to walk around smacking soda and fried potato products out of people's hands, I'm not sure that I agree. If we want to pool our resources as a people to solve problems for others, let's start with water scarcity, unstable/oppressive governments, and renewable energy. Please don't sign me up for forcing people onto weight watchers plans.
        6y ago
refurb 6y ago
So you don’t live in the US and only get your information from the media (who don’t sell clicks by saying everything is fine) but you’re willing to make bold statements about how we’re on the edge of a civil war?
- mattmanser 6y ago
  Its often much easier looking in to see the problems than looking out. I would say that's also the impression I get too watching/reading your fox/CNN/CNBC channels. Here in the UK we're suffering from the same malady and what brought this into focus for me was Brexit + the Grenfell fire. Suddenly I saw people like those from my poor home town on TV (at one point it had the 3rd highest unemployment in the UK). And I hadn't seen anyone like that on TV for years. People with few opportunities, people ALL the UK media had been ignoring because they're not university educated and they say uncomfortable things. When Jon Snow, a well know TV journalist over here, spoke about his experience meeting the Grenfell survivors and the accusations he had to face that they'd tried to talk to the press and been ignored, it really brought it into focus: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/jon-snow-grenfell-mactaggart-media-diversity https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/jon-snow-grenf...