4 ms·

I understand the media loves to hype these things when they happen, and they are all tragic incidents, but when you take a look at how often that actually happe

I understand the media loves to hype these things when they happen, and they are all tragic incidents, but when you take a look at how often that actually happens compared to other things that can end your life, you realize it's really not actually that big a problem, compared to say... Murders or violent crime.

faitswulff 6y ago
Except murderers and violent criminals don't have essentially legal immunity.
- dimitrios1 6y ago
  And this is the hyperbolic, overdramatic society we live in today, with no nuance or potential to see another side. Qualified immunity -- qualified meaning limited. Yes it is easy to abuse and has been abused, but rest assured cops have gone to jail for murder and involuntary manslaughter.
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    I'd love for you to show me how many of these officers went to jail for murder: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...
    - dimitrios1 6y ago
      I'd love for you to first show me how many of those shootings were justified.
    - refurb 6y ago
      Since most police shooting are justified why would the cop go to jail?
  - sp332 6y ago
    I don't think they mean qualified immunity. I think they mean juries acquitting officers, judges throwing out cases, grand juries declining to indict, and D.A.'s deciding not to bring charges.
    - dimitrios1 6y ago
      This happens all the time for officers and not for officers. It depends on what the political agenda is of the mayor and DA. Counterexample: look at what is happening in Portland right now. The DA is flat out refusing to bring charges against criminals. (Also for a longer history of counter examples, see what happens to people who are criminal finaceers. Spoiler alert: nothing.) What people fail to realize time and time again is so many of our contemporary issues come down to power struggles. It all has to do with power dynamics and how one set of grifters is vying to keep it over another set. My answer has always been limitations. Limited powers, limited government, limited terms. But happy to hear of other realistic solutions that don't resemble an anarcharist approach.
      - sp332 6y ago
        If you're in favor of limited government, why so negative about anarchy?
        bzbarsky 6y ago
        Because there is a qualitative difference between "limited government" and "no government"?
        modwest 6y ago
        Never fails IME people who say they favor “limited government” really mean “government for thee, not for me.” They want laws enforced, sure, but mostly just the ones about keeping the rabble from getting in the way of the fReE mArKeT. It’s painfully obvious to me, now, after everything, that pursuing a “limited government” requires making it harder for certain groups to vote and gerrymandering. Can’t have the rabble voting in their own welfare; that means higher tax rates on top earners —- aka “getting in the way of the fReE mArKeT” —- to pay for it. It’s the inevitable conclusion, as we are seeing in the United States.
Groxx 6y ago
>Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. I dunno, that sounds pretty high to me, regardless of how high other things are. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 Pretty extreme protection measures are already in place for much less common causes, e.g. fire, drowning: https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-mortality-risk#Odds%20Of%20Death%20In%20The%20United%20States%20By%20Selected%20Cause%20Of%20Injury,%202018%20(1) https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-mortalit... (though there are obvious opposites as well, e.g. opioids)
- faitswulff 6y ago
  This one's fun†, too: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/08/police-shootings-are-leading-cause-death-young-american-men-new-research-shows/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/08/police-sh... "Among men of all races, ages 25 to 29, police killings are the sixth-leading cause of death, according to a study led by Frank Edwards of Rutgers University, with a total annual mortality risk of 1.8 deaths per 100,000 people. Accidental death, a category that includes automotive accidents and drug overdoses, was the biggest cause at 76.6 deaths per 100,000, and followed by suicide (26.7), other homicides (22.0), heart disease (7.0), and cancer (6.3)." † fun == sickening
  - hn8788 6y ago
    If you're aged 25-29 though, what else are you going to die of? Those 6 categories cover pretty much any way you can die except diseases.
    - faitswulff 6y ago
      I mean, they could just not be killed.
      - recursive 6y ago
        Those cases aren't represented in the list of top causes of death.
modwest 6y ago
This comment expressing support & encouragement for state-sanctioned violence against its citizens is authoritarian propaganda employing classist and racist tropes.
cycomanic 6y ago
Ok so how does this risk compare to the risk of being involuntarily committed, which you say is a high risk. Moreover, how many of those are permanent like you are claiming. Put numbers behind your arguments.

faitswulff 6y ago

Except murderers and violent criminals don't have essentially legal immunity.

dimitrios1 6y ago
And this is the hyperbolic, overdramatic society we live in today, with no nuance or potential to see another side. Qualified immunity -- qualified meaning limited. Yes it is easy to abuse and has been abused, but rest assured cops have gone to jail for murder and involuntary manslaughter.
- faitswulff 6y ago
  I'd love for you to show me how many of these officers went to jail for murder: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de...
  - dimitrios1 6y ago
    I'd love for you to first show me how many of those shootings were justified.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Since most police shooting are justified why would the cop go to jail?
- sp332 6y ago
  I don't think they mean qualified immunity. I think they mean juries acquitting officers, judges throwing out cases, grand juries declining to indict, and D.A.'s deciding not to bring charges.
  - dimitrios1 6y ago
    This happens all the time for officers and not for officers. It depends on what the political agenda is of the mayor and DA. Counterexample: look at what is happening in Portland right now. The DA is flat out refusing to bring charges against criminals. (Also for a longer history of counter examples, see what happens to people who are criminal finaceers. Spoiler alert: nothing.) What people fail to realize time and time again is so many of our contemporary issues come down to power struggles. It all has to do with power dynamics and how one set of grifters is vying to keep it over another set. My answer has always been limitations. Limited powers, limited government, limited terms. But happy to hear of other realistic solutions that don't resemble an anarcharist approach.
    - sp332 6y ago
      If you're in favor of limited government, why so negative about anarchy?
      - bzbarsky 6y ago
        Because there is a qualitative difference between "limited government" and "no government"?
        modwest 6y ago
        Never fails IME people who say they favor “limited government” really mean “government for thee, not for me.” They want laws enforced, sure, but mostly just the ones about keeping the rabble from getting in the way of the fReE mArKeT. It’s painfully obvious to me, now, after everything, that pursuing a “limited government” requires making it harder for certain groups to vote and gerrymandering. Can’t have the rabble voting in their own welfare; that means higher tax rates on top earners —- aka “getting in the way of the fReE mArKeT” —- to pay for it. It’s the inevitable conclusion, as we are seeing in the United States.

Groxx 6y ago

>Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. I dunno, that sounds pretty high to me, regardless of how high other things are. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 Pretty extreme protection measures are already in place for much less common causes, e.g. fire, drowning: https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-mortality-risk#Odds%20Of%20Death%20In%20The%20United%20States%20By%20Selected%20Cause%20Of%20Injury,%202018%20(1) https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-mortalit... (though there are obvious opposites as well, e.g. opioids)

faitswulff 6y ago
This one's fun†, too: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/08/police-shootings-are-leading-cause-death-young-american-men-new-research-shows/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/08/police-sh... "Among men of all races, ages 25 to 29, police killings are the sixth-leading cause of death, according to a study led by Frank Edwards of Rutgers University, with a total annual mortality risk of 1.8 deaths per 100,000 people. Accidental death, a category that includes automotive accidents and drug overdoses, was the biggest cause at 76.6 deaths per 100,000, and followed by suicide (26.7), other homicides (22.0), heart disease (7.0), and cancer (6.3)." † fun == sickening
- hn8788 6y ago
  If you're aged 25-29 though, what else are you going to die of? Those 6 categories cover pretty much any way you can die except diseases.
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    I mean, they could just not be killed.
    - recursive 6y ago
      Those cases aren't represented in the list of top causes of death.

modwest 6y ago

This comment expressing support & encouragement for state-sanctioned violence against its citizens is authoritarian propaganda employing classist and racist tropes.

cycomanic 6y ago

Ok so how does this risk compare to the risk of being involuntarily committed, which you say is a high risk. Moreover, how many of those are permanent like you are claiming. Put numbers behind your arguments.