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Correlation / causation problem here. Of course arrests will go down in that circumstance, by definition. You need other metrics beyond 'arrests' to properly me

Correlation / causation problem here. Of course arrests will go down in that circumstance, by definition. You need other metrics beyond 'arrests' to properly measure effectiveness of the policy, though.

jjeaff 6y ago
I would assume that if the mental health professional can't resolve the issue, then they would call the police to arrest them, no?
- haggy 6y ago
  Yea they even mention that traditional policing didn't go away, they are just now focused on crime
- darawk 6y ago
  Right, but they're also arresting fewer people. People that likely would otherwise have been arrested. Broadly speaking i'm supportive of this initiative, but it's important that its outcomes actually be measured, and just number of arrests is not a good metric. Not arresting people is easy, it's hard to not arrest them without increasing crime. I hope it works though.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    > People that likely would otherwise have been arrested. But that's... that's the point, right? I get what you're saying, but the outcome people wanted was "conflicts that don't need to result in arrests should stop resulting in arrests." The goal was to reduce needless arrests and only have arrests in situations that couldn't be handled in other ways. I mean, we can measure other things like long-term impacts on people's health, prevalence of crime, etc... but one of the questions I was hearing when this idea was first floated was actually, "can these situations be resolved without arrests, or are the police just going to need to be eventually called anyway?" And it does seem like this outcome goes some way towards answering that question. Just as an analogy: if I introduce script changes in a support center with the goal of solving customer problems faster and having fewer calls escalated up the chain to upper management, and at the end of 6 months, way fewer calls are being escalated up the chain to upper management, then that's a statistic I care about. It's not the only stat I care about when figuring out if my changes were successful, I might also look at things like customer satisfaction and call time, but it is on its own a pretty important outcome for me to measure.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      What is the point of arresting someone? If a homeless guy is wandering around with no pants on, do the police really need to be there? Do they need to arrest him? Why? Is jail going to teach him wearing pants is a good idea? Likewise: - Overdoses - Random shouting - Sleeping in a Denny's parking lot This doesn't fix the long term issues behind why these people are running around doing crazy things. But neither does having the police take care of the issue. It works well because fundamentally it's less expensive, more humane, and less likely to turn violent. Let the police handle the situations where they are needed to protect people.
      - koheripbal 6y ago
        Judges will often enroll repeat offenders in drug/alcohol rehab programs. There's probably a more efficient method of that - but the current system sometimes works - county dependent.
        ogre_codes 6y ago
        What is the value in putting a person through forced rehab when the reasons they are drinking/ on drugs hasn't gone away? Most successful rehab is voluntary. People need to first admit they have a problem. Simply making drug rehab programs more widely available without court intercession is likely to have a much bigger impact. If people are released from rehab right back on the street, the chances rehab will be effective are even less. Unless you at least attempt to fix the underlying issues, you are just pouring tax money out the door.
        koheripbal 6y ago
        The value is that rehab programs frequently stop people from being addicts so that they can solve their life problems themselves. They work. Also, it's the same program - whether it's mandated by the court or volunteered for.
        darawk 6y ago
        > What is the value in putting a person through forced rehab when the reasons they are drinking/ on drugs hasn't gone away? As someone who did exactly this and stopped using because of it, they can be quite significant.
ROARosen 6y ago
From the article: A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers [emphasis added] I wonder what the metrics are for police officers when dealing with non-violent people (with mental disturbances)
- JshWright 6y ago
  Pretty high, in my anecdotal experience. Cops tend to escalate things, and "compliance" becomes more important than an actual resolution to the issue.
Areading314 6y ago
Seems homicides are going up, which would not support the idea that this makes police more effective. https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/31/denver-2020-crime-homicides/ https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/31/denver-2020-crime-homi...
- samtho 6y ago
  Unless we arm our police forces with time machines, I would expect homicides to increase during a crisis or uncertain times regardless of the police force.
- emit_time 6y ago
  Homicides are up everywhere over the past year. Probably more related to covid, unemployment, and people going stir crazy than anything.
darawk 6y ago
Exactly this. I hope that this program works, but we need to be measuring the actual outcomes here, not just saying "no arrests". It's easy not to arrest anyone. What's hard is not to arrest anyone without the crime rate going up.
nerdponx 6y ago
Reducing arrests is itself a goal. Jail can be a horrible traumatizing experience and/or a bad influence. You don't need a conviction and a prison sentence to be subject to the harms of incarceration.
AmericanChopper 6y ago
I’ve done a fair bit of contract work with a few law enforcement organisations. One department I was working with was getting a lot of pressure because emergency callers were waiting on the phone for way too long. The commissioner hired an outside agency to triage emergency calls. They’d basically just answer the phone and put you back on hold. They started tracking the time the call was answered from when the triage call center picked up. Reported a huge improvement back up the chain. I read a news paper article about how successful they’d been in reducing wait time a little while later. All the derision we give KPIs in software development applies just as equally to other areas of society too.
Tepix 6y ago
Here's one: Deaths.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jjeaff 6y ago

I would assume that if the mental health professional can't resolve the issue, then they would call the police to arrest them, no?

haggy 6y ago
Yea they even mention that traditional policing didn't go away, they are just now focused on crime
darawk 6y ago
Right, but they're also arresting fewer people. People that likely would otherwise have been arrested. Broadly speaking i'm supportive of this initiative, but it's important that its outcomes actually be measured, and just number of arrests is not a good metric. Not arresting people is easy, it's hard to not arrest them without increasing crime. I hope it works though.
- danShumway 6y ago
  > People that likely would otherwise have been arrested. But that's... that's the point, right? I get what you're saying, but the outcome people wanted was "conflicts that don't need to result in arrests should stop resulting in arrests." The goal was to reduce needless arrests and only have arrests in situations that couldn't be handled in other ways. I mean, we can measure other things like long-term impacts on people's health, prevalence of crime, etc... but one of the questions I was hearing when this idea was first floated was actually, "can these situations be resolved without arrests, or are the police just going to need to be eventually called anyway?" And it does seem like this outcome goes some way towards answering that question. Just as an analogy: if I introduce script changes in a support center with the goal of solving customer problems faster and having fewer calls escalated up the chain to upper management, and at the end of 6 months, way fewer calls are being escalated up the chain to upper management, then that's a statistic I care about. It's not the only stat I care about when figuring out if my changes were successful, I might also look at things like customer satisfaction and call time, but it is on its own a pretty important outcome for me to measure.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    What is the point of arresting someone? If a homeless guy is wandering around with no pants on, do the police really need to be there? Do they need to arrest him? Why? Is jail going to teach him wearing pants is a good idea? Likewise: - Overdoses - Random shouting - Sleeping in a Denny's parking lot This doesn't fix the long term issues behind why these people are running around doing crazy things. But neither does having the police take care of the issue. It works well because fundamentally it's less expensive, more humane, and less likely to turn violent. Let the police handle the situations where they are needed to protect people.
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      Judges will often enroll repeat offenders in drug/alcohol rehab programs. There's probably a more efficient method of that - but the current system sometimes works - county dependent.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        What is the value in putting a person through forced rehab when the reasons they are drinking/ on drugs hasn't gone away? Most successful rehab is voluntary. People need to first admit they have a problem. Simply making drug rehab programs more widely available without court intercession is likely to have a much bigger impact. If people are released from rehab right back on the street, the chances rehab will be effective are even less. Unless you at least attempt to fix the underlying issues, you are just pouring tax money out the door.
        koheripbal 6y ago
        The value is that rehab programs frequently stop people from being addicts so that they can solve their life problems themselves. They work. Also, it's the same program - whether it's mandated by the court or volunteered for.
        darawk 6y ago
        > What is the value in putting a person through forced rehab when the reasons they are drinking/ on drugs hasn't gone away? As someone who did exactly this and stopped using because of it, they can be quite significant.

ROARosen 6y ago

From the article: A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers [emphasis added] I wonder what the metrics are for police officers when dealing with non-violent people (with mental disturbances)

JshWright 6y ago
Pretty high, in my anecdotal experience. Cops tend to escalate things, and "compliance" becomes more important than an actual resolution to the issue.

Areading314 6y ago

Seems homicides are going up, which would not support the idea that this makes police more effective. https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/31/denver-2020-crime-homicides/ https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/31/denver-2020-crime-homi...

samtho 6y ago
Unless we arm our police forces with time machines, I would expect homicides to increase during a crisis or uncertain times regardless of the police force.
emit_time 6y ago
Homicides are up everywhere over the past year. Probably more related to covid, unemployment, and people going stir crazy than anything.

darawk 6y ago

Exactly this. I hope that this program works, but we need to be measuring the actual outcomes here, not just saying "no arrests". It's easy not to arrest anyone. What's hard is not to arrest anyone without the crime rate going up.

nerdponx 6y ago

Reducing arrests is itself a goal. Jail can be a horrible traumatizing experience and/or a bad influence. You don't need a conviction and a prison sentence to be subject to the harms of incarceration.

AmericanChopper 6y ago

I’ve done a fair bit of contract work with a few law enforcement organisations. One department I was working with was getting a lot of pressure because emergency callers were waiting on the phone for way too long. The commissioner hired an outside agency to triage emergency calls. They’d basically just answer the phone and put you back on hold. They started tracking the time the call was answered from when the triage call center picked up. Reported a huge improvement back up the chain. I read a news paper article about how successful they’d been in reducing wait time a little while later. All the derision we give KPIs in software development applies just as equally to other areas of society too.

Tepix 6y ago

Here's one: Deaths.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]