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> The Last Mile’s program is defying the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate. In its 10 years existence, there has been zero recidivism amongst it’s nearly 100

> The Last Mile’s program is defying the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate. In its 10 years existence, there has been zero recidivism amongst it’s nearly 100 graduates, graduates that include Jason Jones. Those numbers tell you everything you need to know. They're not "solving mass incarceration" any time soon.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate Holy shizz, that's a lot. It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, making him a returning "customer" so that certain interest groups can keep profiting. But that's just probably my imagination running wild.
- hn8788 6y ago
  One theory I've heard is that for some particularly bad areas, Baltimore for example, the purpose is to keep people off the street for as long as possible to give young people a chance to grow up without seeing crime as a viable career choice. The idea being that some neigbhorhoods are too far gone, and rehabilitation won't work when people will be released from prison back into crime infested neighborhoods. Whether it's effective or not, I don't know.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - aparsons 6y ago
    You hit the nail on the head. This started during the HW/first Clinton admin
- BeetleB 6y ago
  Monday's segment of Marketplace is worth listening to. The gist of it was that in many (all?) places in the US, a landlord can be sued if they rent to someone who has a criminal record who then went on commit another crime. As a result, few landlords will rent to them. I hang out on real estate forums and have never met anyone who would rent to someone with a criminal record. Getting a job is a whole other problem. That's just one example of the challenges they face. https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass-incarceration/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass... I can't find it right now, but there's also a TED talk by a former state official (state senator?) who committed a crime and spent a very brief time in prison. It was eye opening to him how he was denied pretty much everything once he got out, and only through his connections was he able to get employment. Couple that with the fact that the US is the country that imprisons the highest proportion of its own citizens, and it's terrifying.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    That's pretty bonkers since in most European countries, your crime record is only relevant for certain jobs where money or sensitive data is at stake and nothing else. How does society expect ex-cons to become functioning members again if they're denied housing and employment?
    - ndiscussion 6y ago
      It's unfortunately a self-feeding circle... in the US, if you see a felon, it's likely they will go on to commit more felonies, so you won't want to hire them. But if you don't hire them, they may be forced to commit other felonies... tragedy of the commons I suppose, just like shopping at Walmart is bad for the community but good for the individual. It's hard to overcome these effects without legislation, but noone (sane) wants to be in the community that starts it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > >the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate > Holy shizz, that's a lot. As far as I can tell that’s the rearrest rate, and possibly only the rearrest rate for state offenders, which is higher than for federal (it doesn't exactly match any of the sources I've found, but that's what it seems closest to.) Reconviction (including determination of a parole violation) rates are much lower (somewhere between 50-60% im various sources. And both are heavily tied to other demographic, offense type, and criminal history factors that I'm going to guess are also very influential in selection for the program, so the the expected recidivism rate for those entering the program—whether measured by rearrest, reconviction, or any other standard—would probably be much lower than the overall criminal population. > It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, To the extent something like that is a factor, it's almost backwards: US criminal laws are very disproportionately used against people that society has turned against for reasons other than criminality. Now, it's true that the criminal “justice” system isn't rehabilitative, but it's targets not being turned against society further by it wouldn't protect them from being retargeted.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Quite possibly they are educating people out of the 17% that would not be re-offenders. However, is is bloody obvious that if a person cant survive/earn money legally, they will do so illegally - so the system of 'justice' is just an offence to the senses cause it causes more crime.
- haram_masala 6y ago
  To quote Thomas Frank, we have created a system that offers most people two choices: “toil without hope, or go to jail.”
EForEndeavour 6y ago
It's especially strange to me to see such future-blind thinking in the message board of the world's most famous startup accelerator. The Last Mile's website (https://thelastmile.org/about/ https://thelastmile.org/about/) lists not 100 graduates, but 240 "returned citizens" who have successfully rejoined society, still with a 0% recidivism rate. This article said they only have 100 or so graduates, and the article was published in January of last year. Assuming the article's graduates are the same thing as the website's returned citizens, that means that The Last Mile has managed to produce about 1.4 times more graduates in the past year than in the entire previous 10 years combined. Healthy skepticism is healthy, but to dismiss this program's meteoric rise, huge potential, and noble cause without even a cursory attempt to understand them is being intentionally obtuse.
- Layke1123 6y ago
  I suspect it's likely to promote a certain viewpoint. Hacker News has a vested interest in not questioning a system that it benefits from. For instance, anyone who might be critical of a US historical policy typically has "no business" here because politics cause ideological flame wars, or some other half baked reasoning. While it is very encouraging at fostering dialogue on tech, once the dialogue goes against Hacker News's ultimate purpose, to make money, that's where you start to see weird accounts and strangely offensive comments questioning the act of questioning.
anon_tor_12345 6y ago
hn with the dismissive, lowbrow, comments. you realize that because they're in prison there's this other thing that prevents them from graduating to a job... namely their prison terms. just so we're clear: that there have only been 100 grads that successfully didn't return to prison doesn't tell you anything about how many finished the program and haven't been released yet. moreover, a small program with limited funding running in a few prisons not solving mass incarceration isn't anymore surprising than a thumb in a dyke not preventing a flood. instead you should be saying/asking/imagining: what would the completion and recidivism rate be if this program ran in all prisons. or even better: what would the incarceration rate be if this kind of vocational training were available for free in all poor neighborhoods.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate Holy shizz, that's a lot. It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, making him a returning "customer" so that certain interest groups can keep profiting. But that's just probably my imagination running wild.

hn8788 6y ago
One theory I've heard is that for some particularly bad areas, Baltimore for example, the purpose is to keep people off the street for as long as possible to give young people a chance to grow up without seeing crime as a viable career choice. The idea being that some neigbhorhoods are too far gone, and rehabilitation won't work when people will be released from prison back into crime infested neighborhoods. Whether it's effective or not, I don't know.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- aparsons 6y ago
  You hit the nail on the head. This started during the HW/first Clinton admin
BeetleB 6y ago
Monday's segment of Marketplace is worth listening to. The gist of it was that in many (all?) places in the US, a landlord can be sued if they rent to someone who has a criminal record who then went on commit another crime. As a result, few landlords will rent to them. I hang out on real estate forums and have never met anyone who would rent to someone with a criminal record. Getting a job is a whole other problem. That's just one example of the challenges they face. https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass-incarceration/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass... I can't find it right now, but there's also a TED talk by a former state official (state senator?) who committed a crime and spent a very brief time in prison. It was eye opening to him how he was denied pretty much everything once he got out, and only through his connections was he able to get employment. Couple that with the fact that the US is the country that imprisons the highest proportion of its own citizens, and it's terrifying.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  That's pretty bonkers since in most European countries, your crime record is only relevant for certain jobs where money or sensitive data is at stake and nothing else. How does society expect ex-cons to become functioning members again if they're denied housing and employment?
  - ndiscussion 6y ago
    It's unfortunately a self-feeding circle... in the US, if you see a felon, it's likely they will go on to commit more felonies, so you won't want to hire them. But if you don't hire them, they may be forced to commit other felonies... tragedy of the commons I suppose, just like shopping at Walmart is bad for the community but good for the individual. It's hard to overcome these effects without legislation, but noone (sane) wants to be in the community that starts it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 6y ago
> >the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate > Holy shizz, that's a lot. As far as I can tell that’s the rearrest rate, and possibly only the rearrest rate for state offenders, which is higher than for federal (it doesn't exactly match any of the sources I've found, but that's what it seems closest to.) Reconviction (including determination of a parole violation) rates are much lower (somewhere between 50-60% im various sources. And both are heavily tied to other demographic, offense type, and criminal history factors that I'm going to guess are also very influential in selection for the program, so the the expected recidivism rate for those entering the program—whether measured by rearrest, reconviction, or any other standard—would probably be much lower than the overall criminal population. > It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, To the extent something like that is a factor, it's almost backwards: US criminal laws are very disproportionately used against people that society has turned against for reasons other than criminality. Now, it's true that the criminal “justice” system isn't rehabilitative, but it's targets not being turned against society further by it wouldn't protect them from being retargeted.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

Quite possibly they are educating people out of the 17% that would not be re-offenders. However, is is bloody obvious that if a person cant survive/earn money legally, they will do so illegally - so the system of 'justice' is just an offence to the senses cause it causes more crime.

haram_masala 6y ago
To quote Thomas Frank, we have created a system that offers most people two choices: “toil without hope, or go to jail.”

EForEndeavour 6y ago

It's especially strange to me to see such future-blind thinking in the message board of the world's most famous startup accelerator. The Last Mile's website (https://thelastmile.org/about/ https://thelastmile.org/about/) lists not 100 graduates, but 240 "returned citizens" who have successfully rejoined society, still with a 0% recidivism rate. This article said they only have 100 or so graduates, and the article was published in January of last year. Assuming the article's graduates are the same thing as the website's returned citizens, that means that The Last Mile has managed to produce about 1.4 times more graduates in the past year than in the entire previous 10 years combined. Healthy skepticism is healthy, but to dismiss this program's meteoric rise, huge potential, and noble cause without even a cursory attempt to understand them is being intentionally obtuse.

Layke1123 6y ago
I suspect it's likely to promote a certain viewpoint. Hacker News has a vested interest in not questioning a system that it benefits from. For instance, anyone who might be critical of a US historical policy typically has "no business" here because politics cause ideological flame wars, or some other half baked reasoning. While it is very encouraging at fostering dialogue on tech, once the dialogue goes against Hacker News's ultimate purpose, to make money, that's where you start to see weird accounts and strangely offensive comments questioning the act of questioning.

anon_tor_12345 6y ago

hn with the dismissive, lowbrow, comments. you realize that because they're in prison there's this other thing that prevents them from graduating to a job... namely their prison terms. just so we're clear: that there have only been 100 grads that successfully didn't return to prison doesn't tell you anything about how many finished the program and haven't been released yet. moreover, a small program with limited funding running in a few prisons not solving mass incarceration isn't anymore surprising than a thumb in a dyke not preventing a flood. instead you should be saying/asking/imagining: what would the completion and recidivism rate be if this program ran in all prisons. or even better: what would the incarceration rate be if this kind of vocational training were available for free in all poor neighborhoods.