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> But it seems like you feel like you're "in the community, but not of it". There is an implicit distinction between you and your household, and the "locals".

> But it seems like you feel like you're "in the community, but not of it". There is an implicit distinction between you and your household, and the "locals". If we're talking about a larger city, for example Boston (the city focused on for this webpage), then there will undoubtedly be communities in that city to which you do not belong. I would wager that in nearly every city in the world, there are neighborhoods and communities which non-residents of those communities try to avoid walking through. > The "aggression" you reference is also a bit troubling because it is framed entirely with an external locus of control, which absolves you of any role. Honestly, what are you talking about? Are you insinuating that pedestrians frequently go into neighborhoods in which they don't live to start trouble?

uoaei 6y ago
> If we're talking about a larger city, for example Boston (the city focused on for this webpage), then there will undoubtedly be communities in that city to which you do not belong. And you think that talking about people who live in other neighborhoods like a colonist marching through the Congo is an appropriate way to treat fellow citizens? > Are you insinuating that pedestrians frequently go into neighborhoods in which they don't live to start trouble? Obviously not, and that seems to be a deliberately obtuse interpretation for the intention of muddling debate. The insinuation is that there are many reasons people may become "aggressive" and a lot of them involve someone else acting poorly. OP's framing does not allow for the cause of this "aggression" to be their actions. If someone was routinely speeding through my neighborhood in their car, for instance, I would be "aggressive" because I fear for the safety of my neighbors. The framing that OP uses strongly implies that they think they can do no wrong.
- majormajor 6y ago
  > Obviously not, and that seems to be a deliberately obtuse interpretation for the intention of muddling debate. The insinuation is that there are many reasons people may become "aggressive" and a lot of them involve someone else acting poorly. I've seen far more people acting aggressive to pedestrians without being provoked by the pedestrians because they're in a lot of internal distress (acting erratically, unkempt, possibly homeless) than I've seen pedestrians inciting "locals" to be aggressive back to them. Walk down a street and past someone muttering that they're about to murder a bunch of people and you might not go back that way next time. Sometimes "you were asking for it" isn't the explanation.
  - uoaei 6y ago
    Evidence of exceptions does not disprove the rule. You already know this, I'm sure.
    - majormajor 6y ago
      What do you think is the exception here? We're both making assumptions about what the original poster meant with their wording. In my experience, the normal, non-exceptional case, of aggressive behaviour between people on the street is unprovoked harassment by troubled individuals. (Or outright crime like being held up... but fortunately I haven't encountered this myself) That harrasment is hardly uncommon. I have a hard time thinking of other sorts of conflict or aggression I've seen walking around...
      - uoaei 6y ago
        > That harrasment [sic] is hardly uncommon. I have never experienced significant harassment, and I am a white male-presenting person in a city that is about 30% white. I've lived in various neighborhoods with varying levels of average income and demography. I would walk and bike basically everywhere that wasn't super hilly. I wonder what is different about your experience, the way you carry yourself, etc. that causes these interactions. > In my experience, the normal, non-exceptional case, of aggressive behaviour between people on the street is unprovoked harassment by troubled individuals. My experience is that those people usually know each other in some way. Have you ever taken the time to listen, or is it just too shocking to handle? The situation you describe would seem to be the exception. Compare to violent crimes like sexual assault or shootings, which are overwhelmingly perpetrated by people who already know the victim prior to the assault.
        ndiscussion 6y ago
        I'm glad this has been your experience.. my experience in cities is largely limited - Portland, LA, Seattle, NYC. For me, I've encountered huge amounts of harassment in the first three cities. Oddly in NYC I didn't have a problem with it. In the first three, I've had problems in almost every neighborhood. I honestly believe that somehow, your experience has been very different. I'm not sure why that is... perhaps you have a higher anxiety tolerance than I do. But I've been followed onto the train by a person speaking about shadows, and how he knows people who do "really bad things", situations like that, more than I can count.
- ndiscussion 6y ago
  I edited my post if you're interested, I assure you that I don't do anything to agitate these people, and if I did, I'd deserve whatever came to me (probably a knife).
  - uoaei 6y ago
    > probably a knife Come on, seriously? Still? It's like your only understanding of violent crimes comes from TV dramas...
- notahacker 6y ago
  The world is full of streets where people who are not local or do not look like they are local are likely to be mugged, chased by gangs who regard it as their 'territory', regarded as suspicious on account of their ethnicity or crowded with extremely persistent vendors or beggars. It is sensible to avoid them. Yes, it is also possible for 'locals' to be upset by unreasonable behaviour like loutish drunkenness or reasonable behaviour like wearing a rainbow T-shirt, but it's a bit rich to accuse others of being deliberately obtuse when you're bringing up dangerous driving as an example of why an OP's concerns about walking through certain areas of the city is likely to be his own fault.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  you are extrapolating a lot here from the choice of a single, somewhat vague, word. the looks you receive from passersby can make it very clear that you are not welcome or at least not expected to be in that area. I'm not sure I would call it "aggressive", but certainly "uncomfortable" and to be avoided if possible. this observation is not unique to affluent white people. sometimes people are downright aggressive if they feel you are trespassing in a place that isn't "yours". I had a somewhat mischievous teacher in high school who liked to take us out to lunch in less affluent neighborhoods. more than once he was asked "why did you bring those kids here?" or told outright "you don't belong here" by the regulars.
  - uoaei 6y ago
    The broader point is this: readers of such comments will extrapolate exactly in the manner dictated by the language used. Language matters, word choice matters, and it is incumbent upon civil participants in society to avoid drawing rhetorical lines like "local/not-local" and reducing forms of street-level interaction to "aggression." In my experience, those who speak in this and similar manners are forming narratives to reframe the event to re-orient culpability. Obviously that works better when you dehumanize someone who isn't there to defend themselves.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      it seems that you are the only one who is making this extrapolation, but I'll bite. > In my experience, those who speak in this and similar manners are forming narratives to reframe the event to re-orient culpability. why would people do this? to what end? who is really "culpable" in your opinion? all I see in this thread is people recounting times they have felt unwelcome or unsafe somewhere. in response, they do nothing more extreme than to avoid that place in the future. what exactly is the problem here?
      - uoaei 6y ago
        > it seems that you are the only one who is making this extrapolation Doesn't seem that way to me. Lots of activity in the up/downvotes. Not everyone with an opinion is here expressing it. > why would people do this? to what end? When people do bad or otherwise undignified things, they routinely construct a narrative that conveniently leaves those bad things out, or otherwise reframes the events to cast them in a better light when they later recount the story. I don't think many would find this a controversial idea. This idea has been formalized in psychology since at least Jung in the concept of the shadow. Frequently, this includes additional language to further reinforce the narrative, such as dehumanizing or reductive language like I explained above. The pattern I've noticed in my interactions with sheltered techie-types who are uncomfortable in big city neighborhoods reflects the language used in OP, i.e., their understanding of minority communities is largely informed by stereotypes developed by local news and one-dimensional TV depictions before moving to neighborhoods and getting a chance to see what it's really like. Instead they stay sheltered in their castle and don't talk to their neighbors, and are subsequently (correctly) labeled gentrifiers. The feeling of not fitting in exacerbates the impulse to apply these stereotypes and colors any subsequent interaction before it begins. If OP does not fit this description, they've certainly inherited their language (thus, worldview) from those who do.
- cousin_it 6y ago
  Most of the "aggression" is just mugging attempts. "You're walking in here like you own the place", "what's with these glasses, think you're so smart", "you got any money, what if I find some" is stuff I've heard many times irl.

uoaei 6y ago

> If we're talking about a larger city, for example Boston (the city focused on for this webpage), then there will undoubtedly be communities in that city to which you do not belong. And you think that talking about people who live in other neighborhoods like a colonist marching through the Congo is an appropriate way to treat fellow citizens? > Are you insinuating that pedestrians frequently go into neighborhoods in which they don't live to start trouble? Obviously not, and that seems to be a deliberately obtuse interpretation for the intention of muddling debate. The insinuation is that there are many reasons people may become "aggressive" and a lot of them involve someone else acting poorly. OP's framing does not allow for the cause of this "aggression" to be their actions. If someone was routinely speeding through my neighborhood in their car, for instance, I would be "aggressive" because I fear for the safety of my neighbors. The framing that OP uses strongly implies that they think they can do no wrong.

majormajor 6y ago
> Obviously not, and that seems to be a deliberately obtuse interpretation for the intention of muddling debate. The insinuation is that there are many reasons people may become "aggressive" and a lot of them involve someone else acting poorly. I've seen far more people acting aggressive to pedestrians without being provoked by the pedestrians because they're in a lot of internal distress (acting erratically, unkempt, possibly homeless) than I've seen pedestrians inciting "locals" to be aggressive back to them. Walk down a street and past someone muttering that they're about to murder a bunch of people and you might not go back that way next time. Sometimes "you were asking for it" isn't the explanation.
- uoaei 6y ago
  Evidence of exceptions does not disprove the rule. You already know this, I'm sure.
  - majormajor 6y ago
    What do you think is the exception here? We're both making assumptions about what the original poster meant with their wording. In my experience, the normal, non-exceptional case, of aggressive behaviour between people on the street is unprovoked harassment by troubled individuals. (Or outright crime like being held up... but fortunately I haven't encountered this myself) That harrasment is hardly uncommon. I have a hard time thinking of other sorts of conflict or aggression I've seen walking around...
    - uoaei 6y ago
      > That harrasment [sic] is hardly uncommon. I have never experienced significant harassment, and I am a white male-presenting person in a city that is about 30% white. I've lived in various neighborhoods with varying levels of average income and demography. I would walk and bike basically everywhere that wasn't super hilly. I wonder what is different about your experience, the way you carry yourself, etc. that causes these interactions. > In my experience, the normal, non-exceptional case, of aggressive behaviour between people on the street is unprovoked harassment by troubled individuals. My experience is that those people usually know each other in some way. Have you ever taken the time to listen, or is it just too shocking to handle? The situation you describe would seem to be the exception. Compare to violent crimes like sexual assault or shootings, which are overwhelmingly perpetrated by people who already know the victim prior to the assault.
      - ndiscussion 6y ago
        I'm glad this has been your experience.. my experience in cities is largely limited - Portland, LA, Seattle, NYC. For me, I've encountered huge amounts of harassment in the first three cities. Oddly in NYC I didn't have a problem with it. In the first three, I've had problems in almost every neighborhood. I honestly believe that somehow, your experience has been very different. I'm not sure why that is... perhaps you have a higher anxiety tolerance than I do. But I've been followed onto the train by a person speaking about shadows, and how he knows people who do "really bad things", situations like that, more than I can count.
ndiscussion 6y ago
I edited my post if you're interested, I assure you that I don't do anything to agitate these people, and if I did, I'd deserve whatever came to me (probably a knife).
- uoaei 6y ago
  > probably a knife Come on, seriously? Still? It's like your only understanding of violent crimes comes from TV dramas...
notahacker 6y ago
The world is full of streets where people who are not local or do not look like they are local are likely to be mugged, chased by gangs who regard it as their 'territory', regarded as suspicious on account of their ethnicity or crowded with extremely persistent vendors or beggars. It is sensible to avoid them. Yes, it is also possible for 'locals' to be upset by unreasonable behaviour like loutish drunkenness or reasonable behaviour like wearing a rainbow T-shirt, but it's a bit rich to accuse others of being deliberately obtuse when you're bringing up dangerous driving as an example of why an OP's concerns about walking through certain areas of the city is likely to be his own fault.
leetcrew 6y ago
you are extrapolating a lot here from the choice of a single, somewhat vague, word. the looks you receive from passersby can make it very clear that you are not welcome or at least not expected to be in that area. I'm not sure I would call it "aggressive", but certainly "uncomfortable" and to be avoided if possible. this observation is not unique to affluent white people. sometimes people are downright aggressive if they feel you are trespassing in a place that isn't "yours". I had a somewhat mischievous teacher in high school who liked to take us out to lunch in less affluent neighborhoods. more than once he was asked "why did you bring those kids here?" or told outright "you don't belong here" by the regulars.
- uoaei 6y ago
  The broader point is this: readers of such comments will extrapolate exactly in the manner dictated by the language used. Language matters, word choice matters, and it is incumbent upon civil participants in society to avoid drawing rhetorical lines like "local/not-local" and reducing forms of street-level interaction to "aggression." In my experience, those who speak in this and similar manners are forming narratives to reframe the event to re-orient culpability. Obviously that works better when you dehumanize someone who isn't there to defend themselves.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    it seems that you are the only one who is making this extrapolation, but I'll bite. > In my experience, those who speak in this and similar manners are forming narratives to reframe the event to re-orient culpability. why would people do this? to what end? who is really "culpable" in your opinion? all I see in this thread is people recounting times they have felt unwelcome or unsafe somewhere. in response, they do nothing more extreme than to avoid that place in the future. what exactly is the problem here?
    - uoaei 6y ago
      > it seems that you are the only one who is making this extrapolation Doesn't seem that way to me. Lots of activity in the up/downvotes. Not everyone with an opinion is here expressing it. > why would people do this? to what end? When people do bad or otherwise undignified things, they routinely construct a narrative that conveniently leaves those bad things out, or otherwise reframes the events to cast them in a better light when they later recount the story. I don't think many would find this a controversial idea. This idea has been formalized in psychology since at least Jung in the concept of the shadow. Frequently, this includes additional language to further reinforce the narrative, such as dehumanizing or reductive language like I explained above. The pattern I've noticed in my interactions with sheltered techie-types who are uncomfortable in big city neighborhoods reflects the language used in OP, i.e., their understanding of minority communities is largely informed by stereotypes developed by local news and one-dimensional TV depictions before moving to neighborhoods and getting a chance to see what it's really like. Instead they stay sheltered in their castle and don't talk to their neighbors, and are subsequently (correctly) labeled gentrifiers. The feeling of not fitting in exacerbates the impulse to apply these stereotypes and colors any subsequent interaction before it begins. If OP does not fit this description, they've certainly inherited their language (thus, worldview) from those who do.
cousin_it 6y ago
Most of the "aggression" is just mugging attempts. "You're walking in here like you own the place", "what's with these glasses, think you're so smart", "you got any money, what if I find some" is stuff I've heard many times irl.